Ivan Illich, a radical public intellectual, critiques modern institutions with deep insights into education, healthcare, and capitalism. Joined by biographer David Cayley, they explore Illich's concept of 'conviviality' and the commodification of care that diminishes personal relationships. They discuss the legacy of Illich's 'learning webs' and how his ideas shape contemporary movements around community and solidarity. Their conversation delves into the transformative power of friendship, humor, and the need for genuine connection in an increasingly divided society.