Elizabeth Popp Berman

Sociologist Elizabeth Popp Berman discusses the dominance of economic thinking in US policy, its impact on environmental issues, and the relationship between cost benefit analysis and regulatory capture. She explores how economic reasoning became ingrained in policymaking and its influence on climate change policies. Berman also discusses the frustrating phenomenon of seeking approval from economists instead of democratic voters.

The logic of orthodox economic thinking has come to dominate and permeate every aspect of our lives, from the deeply internalized capitalism which shapes our thoughts and hopes and dreams, to policy decisions that shape our lives, constrain our possibilities, and steal public goods out from under our noses. How did we get here? How did economic rigidity gain such supremacy? Are the principles of orthodox economics really value neutral, as its champions claim? And if not, what moral philosophies underpin them? What are their origins? And how have they come to dominate policymaking in the last several decades? In the first half of this Conversation, we’ve brought on Jonathan Aldred, a Fellow and Director of Studies in Economics at Emmanuel College, Lecturer in the Department of Land Economy, University of Cambridge, and author of the book License to be Bad: How Economics Corrupted Us. Jonathan will walk us through the philosophical foundations of orthodox and neoliberal economics. And then in the second half we’ve brought on Elizabeth Popp Berman, an economic sociologist, associate professor of organizational studies at the University of Michigan, and author of the book Thinking like an Economist: How Efficiency Replaced Equality in U.S. Public Policy. We’ll talk with Elizabeth about the policy implications of dogmatic economic thinking.  This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Dr. Elizabeth Popp Berman, Associate Professor of Organizational Studies at University of Michigan, discusses her new book 'Thinking Like an Economist: How Efficiency Replaced Equality in U.S. Public Policy' and the influence of economic reasoning in social policy. They explore the conflict within the Democratic party, the planning programming budgeting system (PPBS), conflicting views on universal health insurance, key actors and intellectual communities that shaped social policy, the influence of economic reasoning in crime policy, and the challenge of applying economic thinking in policy debates.

It is hard to think of an idea more central to capitalism than economics, particularly economic efficiency. Similarly, public policy is now — and has been for a while — conducted in the language of budgets, models, and cost-benefit analyses. But how accountable is this idea to the public?Elizabeth Popp Berman is a sociologist and historian of economic thought at the University of Michigan and the author of the new book "Thinking Like An Economist: How Efficiency Replaced Equality in U.S. Public Policy." In this episode, she joins Bethany and Luigi to discuss this history of economics as a pervasive influence in the halls of political power in Washington and the challenges of believing in economic models as "truth" in an increasingly complex world. Using case studies in health care, debt forgiveness, pandemic economic recovery, and beyond, the three of them debate whether there are spheres of public and political life where economics has overstepped its bounds and if it belongs there altogether.

Elizabeth Popp Berman discusses the economic style's impact on US economics. She explores its history, institutionalization, and how it influenced public policy. The conversation includes examples from the Obama, Reagan, and Clinton administrations, along with alternatives to the economic style.