Join renowned creativity researcher, Keith Sawyer, and award winning artist and educator, Steve DeFrank, for an exploration of how the world's leading art and design schools teach creativity. Sawyer brings insights from his interviews with over 100 professional artists, designers, and educators across New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago. DeFrank contributes his experience as both practicing artist and educator at the School of Visual Arts.

Extended Introduction:

What does it really take to learn creativity? Join renowned creativity researcher Keith Sawyer and award-winning artist and educator Steve DeFrank as they explore the world's most prestigious art and design schools. Sawyer, author of the new book Learning to See: Inside the World's Leading Art and Design Schools, shares groundbreaking insights from his extensive interviews with over 100 leading artists, designers, and educators across New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago. DeFrank brings his unique dual perspective as both a successful professional artist—whose work is held in collections including the New Museum of Contemporary Art and has been featured in publications like The New York Times and Vanity Fair—and an experienced educator at the School of Visual Arts in New York.

Far from the romantic myths of tortured genius or sudden brilliant inspiration, this episode reveals the day-to-day reality of creative work at the highest professional levels. You'll be surprised to learn that many successful artists and designers actually resist using words like "creative" or "original" to describe their work. Instead, they focus on something far more practical and teachable. Through the articulate voices of top art and design educators like DeFrank—professionals who have mastered both creating and teaching—we explore what these institutions are really teaching their students, and why their methods might revolutionize how we think about learning and education more broadly.

This conversation challenges conventional wisdom about creativity while offering concrete insights that educators, students, and anyone interested in creative learning can apply. Whether you're curious about artistic education or looking to understand how creativity actually develops, this episode provides a rare window into the studios and classrooms where tomorrow's leading creators are being shaped today.

About our guests

Dr. Keith Sawyer is one of the country's leading scientific experts on creativity. He is the Morgan Distinguished Professor in Educational Innovations at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. He hosts the podcast “The Science of Creativity,” available on all platforms. His 2025 book Learning to See: Inside the World's Leading Art and Design Schools is a groundbreaking account of how nationally known artists and designers teach in the world's top art BFA and MFA programs. His 2024 book Explaining Creativity: The Science of Human Innovation, known as "the creativity bible," is an authoritative review of all creativity research. His 2013 book Zig Zag identifies the 8 stages of the creative process, and contains over 100 techniques to enhance your personal creativity.

Podcast: The Science of Creativity
Substack: The Science of Creativity
Instagram: @creativityprofessor
Facebook: @creativityprofessor
YouTube channel: @creativityprofessor (includes all podcast episodes)
LinkedIn: @drkeithsawyer

Steve DeFrank: has had numerous solo exhibitions and participated in group shows across the U.S. and abroad, earning Fulbright, American Academy of Arts and Letters, and Lillian Orlowsky/William Freed awards. While on his Fulbright in Mexico, he trained as a luchador, the best preparation, he says, for being an artist. Lucha Libre, after all, is painting brought to life in front of exuberant crowds. DeFrank is an academically trained painter with a deep love of materials, especially casein, a demanding medium dating back to the Egyptians. His work blends meticulous craft with a wry queerness that resists cliché, creating paintings that provoke thought while inviting pleasure. He’s a passionate, terrible salsa dancer, he believes it’s more important to have fun than to be good. Far better at eating great food, playing cards, and talking about art, often all at once, he brings humor, curiosity, and tenacious joy to both his studio practice and the classroom, where he has taught since 1995.

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