Abraham Cho, who explores the intersections of power, institutions, and faith, joins David Fitch, an advocate for redefining the church's approach to power. They dissect the difference between coercive 'over power' and persuasive 'under power.' The conversation highlights the church's challenges with integrity and trust amid scandals. They also address the moral complexities of power dynamics and the necessity of grounding power in resurrection and divine intention, urging the church to align itself with God’s kingdom rather than worldly influences.