Seth Godin - The Generosity of Authority

Thank you so much for joining us. I'm very excited about this conversation. I've been thinking about it for two years, so I'll try not to pummel you with random questions that are too weird but the first we want to start with, given the show title, it's the Business of Authority, what does the word authority mean to you in the context of a business?

Seth Godin

That's a great place to start. I don't think it means what most people use the word authority to mean. Authority usually means what a manager has, which is power, which is the ability to get other people to do what want even if they don't want to do it. I would say that in your case what we're actually talking about is reputation. What we're talking about is a variation of trust, which is trust to the power of provability, meaning not only do I trust you but I can go to my partners, my bosses and my employees and insist that they trust you as well because you have earned that through your reputation.

Jonathan Stark

Yes, I love the distinction. It's not the boss kind of authority. You will "respect my authorita", fabulous. Okay, so what are first things that come to mind when someone is starting to establish authority? I think it happens over time, has a lot to do with, like you said, trust and that trust has to exist in something and that something is the audience. So, you're on a mission and authority is on a mission. They're moving toward a vision that they see in the future. They're trying to lead people to that goal. What are the first things that come to mind when you think about funding that mission by building a business around it so that you can keep doing it?

Seth Godin

There was a pre-question which I'll do first. Yes, as you pointed out it is in the eye of the beholder. There's a funny joke, being headed executive gets bumped off a flight on Delta and marches up to the counter and says, "Do you know who I am?", and the person behind the counter gets on the PA system and says, "Medical alert, we have someone with amnesia at the front desk. He doesn't know who he is." If she doesn't know who you are then it doesn't matter who you are and this is the McKinsey Trap. The McKinsey Trap is you're getting paid X number of dollars at McKinsey and you realize they're marking you up 4X, so you quit McKinsey and go out on your own and you can't even get paid a quarter of what you used to get paid. Well, it's the same consultant giving the same advice, so why is there a 16X difference in the comp. The reason is because when you hire McKinsey you are not buying advice. You are buying the privilege of telling the board what McKinsey said and that's what they sell. That is my current definition of useful authority in this case. It has nothing to do with proving you are right and everything to do with the mantel that you have earned in the eye of the consumer.

Seth Godin

Now, what that gets us is to is this whole riff about status roles because status roles are everything in our culture. Who's up? Who's down? Who gets to eat first? Why is someone dating a supermodel? Why did you buy that car? What neighborhood do you live in? All of these are status exchanges where we are trying to buy safety, or leverage or authority by acquisition of something that gives us a sense of status, so McKinsey maintains their status by acting like a diva, by not making sales calls, by charging extra. The more they charge the more authority they actually get and so while we may be tempted to hustle to get our authority, to somehow prove that we are right we are actually giving up authority when you do that because in our culture the signals that come with authority are not the same as the signals that come from the desperate chase of proving you're right.

Jonathan Stark

Yeah and that's something we talk about all the time. I think the tricky part for people who are listening who probably agree with that, it's like, "But you can't start off by acting like a diva", right? I mean, that doesn't seem to track. There has to be this sort of progression where there's trust built and then later when you're IDEO and you've got every Fortune 500 logo on your homepage and they're all amazing brands, at a certain point it feels like you reach a critical mass and you can maintain that authority position with these status games that you just referred to. Is that the way you start though? You just go out on your own and you play hard to get with your clients. That doesn't seem like it would work.

Seth Godin

Correct, another great insight. In fact, there's two games and I just described the second game. The first game is a completely different game. It is not a junior version of the other game. It is the game of who can be the most generous, that if you win the game to be the most generous then you earn the privilege in the area where you seek to have authority to exchange status.

Seth Godin

So, I'll use my example. Not because I have an enormous amount of authority because I haven't sought to do that but you blog every day for a thousand days in a row. That's free. You make YouTube videos. That's free but then someone calls you up to give a speech. That's not free. That's expensive and what that means is you don't give speeches for a while because you're not willing to give a $500.00 speech because people who have something to say don't give $500.00 speeches. You will give a free speech at Ted. You will organize your own conference. Organizing a conference is generous but if you want me to get on a plane and come give a speech to your organization, that's expensive and I'm fine if you don't want to buy it because I got other things I can do that are generous instead.

Jonathan Stark

Well, that tracks with our normal story here, that's for sure. You may or may not know this but both Rochelle and I are daily emailers inspired by you and a friend of mine, Philip Morgan. It's transformative on your business. It's not just in the sense of you're "giving away the farm" so to speak in a particular format and being generous and sharing the ideas, honestly I think of it every day as "who can I help today," how am I going to help them, what can I write today that's going to help the kind of person who's on my list. That's great and it leads to all the things we're talking about, th...