Sam Harris interviews John Gray, an expert in moral and political progress. They discuss threats to freedom of thought, the limits of law, dangers of technology, failures of convergence on norms and values, de-industrialization in Europe, progressive embrace of barbarism, the absurdity of pacifism, utilitarianism, and misconceptions about religion.
Progress in ethics and politics is not cumulative like progress in science and technology, as advancements in these areas are often lost over time.
Technological advancements pose challenges to the idea of progress, as they can be used for barbarous and uncivilized ends.
Threats to freedom of expression and thought now primarily come from civil society institutions rather than autocratic states.
Religion serves human needs and functions beyond intellectual errors, fulfilling the underlying need for a framework of belief or worldview.
Deep dives
Historical and current threats to freedom of thought
The podcast episode discusses the historical and current threats to freedom of thought. It explores how the limits of law and the spread of dangerous technology have posed challenges to freedom of expression. It also highlights the changing sources of threats to old-fashioned liberal freedoms, from autocratic states in the past to civil society institutions such as universities, philanthropic organizations, and artistic institutions.
The illusion of political and ethical progress
The episode challenges the assumption of political and ethical progress, questioning the idea that what has been gained will not be lost in the future. It argues that progress in ethics and politics is not cumulative like progress in science and technology. Instead, it contends that advancements in ethics and politics are often lost over time, and that there is a built-in moral and political entropy that leads to the resurgence of old evils and the erosion of previously achieved progress.
The dangers of technological advancements
The podcast highlights the dangers of technological advancements in the context of progress. It mentions the emergence of new technologies like drones and cyber warfare, which have reshaped conflicts and posed new threats. These advancements challenge assumptions about progress, as they can be used for barbarous and uncivilized ends, regardless of the overall scientific and technological progress happening concurrently.
The fragility of liberal civilization
The episode discusses the fragility of liberal civilization and the erosion of old-fashioned liberal freedoms. It points out the shift in threats to freedom of expression and thought, which now primarily come from civil society institutions rather than autocratic states. It emphasizes the challenges faced by individuals who deviate from progressive orthodoxy, highlighting the impact on their careers and the broader implications for intellectual and political life.
Religion as More Than an Intellectual Error
Religion shouldn't be solely seen as an intellectual mistake, as it serves human needs and functions in human life beyond intellectual errors. It is nearly universal in human culture, indicating its significance. The assumption that religion involves only intellectual mistakes is a rationalist or intellectualist perspective, disregarding the broader functions and values religion provides in human societies.
The Need for Belief
The underlying need for a framework of belief, a worldview, or set of ideas that sustains one's sense of value and importance in the universe persists even when monotheism is rejected. This need is observed in historical shifts towards other belief systems that fulfill this purpose, such as philosophical frameworks, political ideologies, or ideas of historical progress. Religion goes beyond monotheism and includes a range of beliefs, such as ancient Greek, Chinese, and Indian religions.
The Diversity of Universalist Ethics
Universalist ethics come in various forms throughout history and differing cultures. Liberal universalist ethics are just one example, coincidental to a particular time and place. There are other forms of universalist ethics, such as Thomism, which is anti-liberal, yet upholds universal moral judgments. The connection between atheism and liberalism isn't essential, and throughout history, atheistic thinkers have embraced illiberal or anti-liberal ideologies.
The Complexities of Liberalism
The association between liberalism and universalism does not imply a binary view where liberalism is the superior form and all others are inferior. Liberalism, while one form of the good life, can coexist with other forms that prioritize different virtues and ideals. Many other ways of life exist, each with their own constellations of goods, virtues, and excellence. Liberal universalist ethics are a historically contingent and local tradition that may not be universally applicable.
Sam Harris speaks with John Gray about the possibility of moral and political progress. They discuss historical and current threats to freedom of thought, the limits of law, the spread of dangerous technology, failures of convergence on norms and values, Arthur Koestler, de-industrialization in Europe, fellow travelers and the progressive embrace of barbarism, Bertrand Russell, the absurdity of pacifism, utilitarianism, the moral landscape, George Santayana, moral and scientific realism, pragmatism, atheism, Schopenhauer, liberalism as an historical accident, and other topics.
John Gray is the author of many critically acclaimed books, including The Silence of Animals, The Immortalization Commission, Black Mass, and Straw Dogs. His latest book is The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism. He is a regular contributor to The New York Review of Books, and he has been a professor of politics at Oxford, a visiting professor at Harvard and Yale, and a professor of European thought at the London School of Economics. He now writes full-time.
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