21 Hats Podcast

Straight Talk About ESOPs and Co-Ops and EOTs, Oh My!

Jul 8, 2025
John Abrams, a seasoned founder, author, and advocate for sustainable business practices, joins Mel Gravely and Jay Goltz, leaders in the construction industry, for an engaging discussion on employee ownership models. They explore strategies to avoid disastrous private equity sales and share insights on why there are so few employee-owned businesses. The trio dives into the nuances of ESOPs versus co-ops, addressing both potential benefits and challenges. Their candid conversation highlights the importance of succession planning while keeping business values intact.
Ask episode
AI Snips
Chapters
Books
Transcript
Episode notes
INSIGHT

Why Worker Co-Ops Could Be the Future of Business Succession

Worker co-ops offer a compelling alternative to private equity sales, allowing business owners to sell to their employees and preserve company culture and mission.

John Abrams shares how converting his company to a worker co-op created a thriving, engaged workforce that values ownership without sacrificing strong leadership or clear decision-making structures.

Unlike ESOPs, which can be costly, complex, and primarily function as retirement plans, worker co-ops require less oversight and allow employees to share profits annually, not just at retirement.

This model can be financed by owner-financing over several years, sometimes supplemented with specialized nonprofit lenders, providing a practical path for succession that aligns with the owner's values and secures the company's future.

Jay Goltz, initially skeptical, recognizes the potential of co-ops after learning how they operate without the pitfalls he encountered investigating ESOPs.

ANECDOTE

John Abrams' Worker Co-op Journey

  • John Abrams converted South Mountain into a worker co-op in response to employees wanting a greater stake in their careers.
  • The company grew from $1.5 million to over $20 million in revenue, thriving under this model for 40 years.
INSIGHT

Worker Co-ops Need Leadership

  • Worker co-ops do not operate by voting on everything; leadership remains crucial.
  • Clear division between management decisions and owner policy decisions makes the model viable.
Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode
Get the app