Joy McCullough is a Protestant, Evangelical with a background in professional counseling. She is the wife of Pastor Jeff McCullough, the creator of the YouTube channel Hello Saints. She has four children and recently relocated to Utah from St. Louis. Joy spends a lot of time doing photography, thrifting, and playing violin, along with staring at the Wasatch Mountains. She completed her undergraduate degree in speech communication from Greenville University and received a Masters in Professional Counseling from Liberty University in Virginia. Joy is not afraid of her own or other people’s brokenness. She has a heart for creating space for people to come as they are and to find true healing and hope through authenticity and honesty, free from shame. Her faith in Jesus informs this passion and approach. Links YouTube @HelloSaints There is already a discussion started about this podcast. Share your thoughts HERE. Watch on YouTube Read the TRANSCRIPT of this podcast Highlights 3:50 Introduction to Joy, a therapist and wife of Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints 4:50 What moving to Utah has been like as someone that isn’t LDS 6:30 Joy’s faith development and journey 10:00 The stigma of being a pastor’s wife and high expectations of other people 11:10 Advice to a pastor’s or bishop’s wife 14:15 Journey to becoming a therapist 17:00 Religion and shame. We don’t experience God’s love and grace through shame. 21:40 Helping someone through their shame 26:40 There is no shame in having a need or desire. You deserve to have your needs met and don’t need to feel shame. 28:30 When we feel broken we often feel shame. When people feel shame it’s because they have some sort of need. However, brokenness is an opportunity to receive and feel God’s love and grace. 32:30 How can a bishop help someone buried in shame? 34:00 Joy shares an experience she had as a teen with an abusive pastor. She carried shame from the experience for many years. However, she was able to heal by instead of saying what is wrong with me? But what happened to me? 36:00 We focus so much on the sin and behavior but we should ask what happened? Why are we going towards sin? What led to the addiction? 38:00 Sin destroys our identity. Knowing and feeling the love of God. Do you understand and feel your belovedness? 39:45 Even with grace our lives will not be pain free. We can experience grace but we are going to have to experience grief and sorrow. 41:00 Wounding and brokenness. We have to allow our pain to lead us to Jesus and not sinful behavior. 44:00 When we hyperfocus on the behaviors we bypass our hearts, we bypass our feelings and our emotions and try to achieve certain behaviors and what looks good on the outside but inside we are still a mess. We haven’t truly healed. 51:00 Showing up for people and lamenting with them. How can we do that when we haven’t experienced what they have experienced? 53:30 We shouldn’t try to pull people out of their pain but sit with them in their pain. We have to feel discomfort in order to heal. 54:30 Where there is shame there is also self hatred or contempt for others. One thing that transforms shame is compassion. 57:00 Joy shares how she has experienced Jesus in her life through trauma, wounding, and healing. “Jesus has held me together.” The Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson,