Philosophers Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks bring their intellectual rigor to marriage and relationships. They sit down with Erik Torenberg to discuss their relationship's beginnings (when Agnes was Arnold's professor), their Platonic versus Aristotelian disagreements about whether marriage is something to transcend or achieve, and why relationships must "escape their beginnings" to thrive. Agnes explains why "marriage is a preparation for divorce," while Arnold argues the healthiest foundation for partnership isn't reciprocal support but simply appreciating how your partner lives—what he calls "bearing witness.".

Modern Relationships is a podcast from Turpentine. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

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RECOMMENDED IN THIS EPISODE:

* New Yorker article on Agnes and Arnold, by Rachel Aviv: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/13/agnes-callard-profile-marriage-philosophy

* Arnold Brooks: http://philosophy.uchicago.edu/arnold-brooks

* Pre-order Agnes Callard's new book Open Socrates: https://wwnorton.com/books/open-socrates

* Agnes Callard on Upstream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JotaCsaG3Y

FOLLOW ON X:

Agnes - @agnescallard

Erik - @eriktorenberg

Turpentine - @turpentinemedia

TIMESTAMPS:

(01:49) Intro

(02:08) Agnes' and Arnold's relationship background

(08:13) Marriage and philosophy connection

(16:38) Sponsor: Relationship Hero

(18:13) Discussion about divorce

(26:37) Relationships haunted by their beginnings

(30:18) Maintaining friendship with an ex-partner

(34:00) Advice on choosing a partner

(43:34) Conflict about ambition and contentment

(49:35) Arnold's advice to overthink marriage together

(59:42) Parenting philosophy and making children interesting

(1:04:12) Reflections

(1:08:17) Wrap

45: Return to Our First Love