Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

"How the Church can Defeat Trumpism" with Jonathan Rauch

Jan 27, 2025

Jonathan Rauch, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and an advocate for liberal values, discusses how the Evangelical Church can counter Trumpism. He explores the dangers of post-liberalism and the erosion of trust in institutions accelerated by Trump's patronage politics. Rauch argues for a moral witness over political power from Christianity, emphasizing constructive engagement with democratic values. The conversation touches on the evolving dynamics within Christianity and the need for introspection amidst rising populism.

01:30:29

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Episode guests

Jonathan Rauch

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Quick takeaways

The evangelical church has the potential to counter Trumpism by promoting values of pluralism, tolerance, and civility in American democracy.

The concept of patrimonialism under Trump emphasizes loyalty over competence, posing risks to the effectiveness of governance and democratic norms.

A shift towards constructive, inclusive conversations within the evangelical community could foster societal healing and bridge divides in a polarized environment.

Deep dives

Christianity and Trump's Influence

The evangelical church is identified as a key institution that could counteract the rise of Trumpism and restore values of pluralism, tolerance, and civility. Contrary to popular belief that this religious group primarily contributed to Trump's success, the argument suggests that it has the potential to be a catalyst for positive change in American democracy. Authors advocate for an alliance with white conservative evangelicals, claiming they can be partners in safeguarding the future of liberal democracy. This perspective challenges the conventional notion that religion is solely a source of division and highlights its capacity for fostering communal values.

Intro

4min

Patrimonialism and Politics

13min

Identity, Privilege, and Post-Liberal Reflections

17min

Trust Erosion in Modern Politics

9min

Skepticism Towards Anti-Woke Narratives and Conspiracy Mentality

2min

Reforming Politics through Christian Values

23min

Evolution of the Mormon Church's Stance on LGBTQ+ Rights

4min

Divine Inspiration and Constitutional Reverence

2min

Balancing Faith and Freedom

17min

White, conservative, evangelical American Christians helped to bring Donald Trump to power. Their political activism is turbo-charged by populist right-wing "post-liberals" who believe traditions like civility and pluralism are passé -- people including entertainers like Tucker Carlson and Curtis Yarvin, as well as intellectuals like Sohrab Amari, Patrick Deneen and Rod Dreher.

These "post-liberals" are correct in some of their criticisms of modern America but wrong in their solutions, argues today's guest, Jonathan Rauch. And who's best-placed to defeat them? Paradoxically, this atheist Jew argues: the Evangelical Church.

Rauch has spent his life fighting for liberal values. At The Economist magazine, he pioneered its editorial embrace of gay marriage long before that was popular. His hugely influential books include "The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth", about which Josh and Sam Harris interviewed him on Sam's podcast, Making Sense, in 2024.

Today: What happens to American democracy if Christianity can no longer perform the functions on which our constitutional order depends? Josh and Jonathan wrestle it out.

Rauch is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing editor of The Atlantic. His new book, "Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy", is available at https://tinyurl.com/y8ejdd5z

Watch this conversation on YouTube. And you’re missing out on our best ad-free content if you haven’t popped over to the Uncomfy Convos Substack page.

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