Conversations: Full Return World with Howard Marks and Armen Panossian
Nov 2, 2023
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Howard Marks (Co-Chairman) and Armen Panossian (Head of Performing Credit) discuss the implications of a potential sea change in the investment environment, tail risks in today's markets, and the concept of a full return world. They also explore the risks of higher interest rates, opportunities for opportunistic investors, and share their biggest surprises in the economy and stock market.
Investors should acknowledge and adjust their strategies to the end of the era of declining and ultra-low interest rates.
Higher interest rates pose challenges for capital structures and private credit, necessitating careful analysis and selection of investment opportunities.
Deep dives
The Sea Change Thesis and Its Significance
The podcast discusses Howard Marks' memo on 'Sea Change' and explains the significance of this concept. The sea change refers to a major and possibly lasting development in interest rates, which have been low or declining since 1980, with occasional exceptions. Marks emphasizes that this is not a normal cyclical fluctuation, but a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence that will have far-reaching implications for GDP growth, ease of financing, defaults, bankruptcies, and prospective returns. He highlights that the era of declining and ultra-low interest rates may be coming to an end, urging investors to acknowledge this significant shift and adjust their strategies accordingly.
Challenges in Capital Structures and Private Credit
The podcast delves into the challenges faced by capital structures and private credit in light of rising interest rates. Armin Pinozian explains that the impact of higher rates has begun to take hold, leading to cash flow problems for companies with high leverage and interest rate-sensitive assets. He warns that the next 12 to 24 months could bring a day of reckoning for these capital structures and refinancing needs. Armin also highlights a growing tail of weak borrowers who are unable to meet their debt obligations, posing risks to the market. However, he also identifies attractive investment opportunities in high-quality, high-yield bonds and newly issued private credit, where thorough analysis and careful selection can yield positive returns.
Being Cautious and Opportunities for Defensive Investments
The podcast emphasizes the importance of being cautious and making smart capital allocation decisions in the current market environment. Howard Marks suggests a shift away from ownership towards lending, as debt instruments can provide equity-like returns but with less volatility and contractual obligations. He advises investors to take advantage of today's comparatively higher rates by allocating capital to credit instruments as a defensive measure. Marks also mentions that the market's positive performance and optimism may be misleading, urging investors to avoid complacency and to focus on credit analysis and risk management. He concludes by stating that the present period marks a transition from a low-return world to a full-return world, presenting exciting opportunities for credit investors.
Howard Marks (Co-Chairman) and Armen Panossian (Head of Performing Credit) discuss topics related to Howard’s latest memo, Further Thoughts on Sea Change, and Oaktree’s recently published Performing Credit Quarterly 3Q2023 in this crossover episode of The Insight: Conversations and Behind the Memo. They consider the implications of the potential sea change reshaping the investment environment, the tail risks building in today’s markets, and what it means to be in a full return world.
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