The People Side of Business with Keynote Speaker Brad Montgomery

The People Side of Business with Brad Montgomery

Full Transcript Below:

Intro:

Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I sat down with Brad Montgomery, and here’s what you need to know about Brad. Like you, happiness expert speaker and author Brad Montgomery believes happiness pays. It makes business sense to invest in the people side of the business. And that speakers should be engaging and have a useful message. Brad combines all of these ideas and a ton more into everything that he does on stage. He’s a very funny guy with some very relevant ideas about how to improve ourselves and the people around us. And he’s funny. Yeah, I said that twice. He’s a business owner, an author, a blogger, and an idea guy. And today we sit down and talk about the people side of the business.

Meet Brad Montgomery, Keynote Speaker, Comedian and Magician

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I’m so excited to be sitting down with Brad Montgomery, as you heard from the bio, Brad is a speaker. He has worked with leaders all over the world, and we’re talking about how we as leaders can create more success for our organizations, for our teams, for ourselves, just by focusing on the people side of performance. Brad, can you please just go ahead and introduce yourself? I know that we’re going to have a great conversation. I’m so excited to introduce you to the cross tab network, but Brad, for those that may be unfamiliar with you. Go ahead and just tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, and how you came to really be focusing on the people side of performance and that leadership perspective. And I know you do many other topics too, but that’s what we’re going to be talking about today.

Brad Montgomery:

What’s up, Jenn? Thanks for having me, Crestcom network! I’ve missed you. Oh yeah. People side to performance. So I am a motivational keynote speaker. But I have this lifetime experience of being on stage, meaning right out of college. I started out as a comedian and a magician, so I’ve never had a traditional job, but that’s okay. I’ve never worked in a cubicle. I’ve never had, I’ve never had a manager. I’ve never had a supervisor. I’ve never had a leader. And yet ironically organizations bring me in to talk to their managers and their leaders about how to be better. So if that is in the crazy backstory, what is? And how about if I tell you what I do by telling you a funny story? So, yes.

Jenn DeWall:

Of course, yes.

Brad Montgomery:

By funny, I don’t mean hilarious. I mean, funny-peculiar. So, so Jenn, I’m a young magician and comedian and I just said, okay, now I’m a speaker. So I had this crappy speech called Stack Your Deck for Success, a Magician’s Guide to Change. And I had like T R I C K tricks – T stands for, and I don’t remember what it stands for, but it was just a crappy keynote, but I was young, right. I was super young. And I’m hired to talk to a really big computer company. Like there’s going to be 700 new supervisors, like youngest managers a computer company I wasn’t supposed to mention, but its initials, there are three initials and they rhyme with [inaudible].

So picture this, a young version of me, all kinds of anxiety. And I’m I felt like a fraud, right? Like I don’t have anything for these people. They’re going to know. And I’m watching them before me. Cause you know, I was, it was a one day program and I was sometime in the afternoon and the guy before me was talking to them about this incredible, incredible new concept called management by walking around. And I’m like, what? And what it meant though, this person was telling these managers, Oh, you have to stand up from your desk and you have to walk away from your desk and you’re going to have to actually talk to the people with your mouth to the people you’re leading. And I’m in a quarter thinking, like- I was feeling like a fraud a minute ago, but what are you guys for?

Why is this not common sense? So the, you know, fast forward to present day, me, what I have learned, which is delightful and either both totally cool or a little bit alarming is that leaders have common sense too. So, you know, I don’t feel like I’m really teaching anything new to these, to my clients. But it turns out they need to be reminded like, Oh, you’re just because you’re a leader. Doesn’t mean you’re not supposed to be a kind person just because you’re a leader. That doesn’t mean you’re maybe not supposed to have a relationship with the people you’re managing. And, and in fact, maybe if you’d focused on the people side of performance, get it, see how I tied that in? Maybe you’d be a better leader. And in fact, like backed in science, of course, you were, but everyone knows that that would be the case. So I’m in this weird position where I’m telling people very smart people, things that they already know and getting paid for it. Can you believe that?

The People Side of Business Performance

Jenn DeWall:

That is an important thing because I think that with leadership, we’d forget that we’re in the business of people, right? We think that there’s maybe a framework or a toolkit, that’s going to be a help. That’s going to help us maybe navigate something or say the right thing. Like you’re a human being, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to do this. Like, just remember to be a relatable person or just seeing people as people. Like, why do you think that people start to dress it up as like, yeah, just get out and walkthrough, but why do people dress it up? Maybe.

Brad Montgomery:

Yeah. I’d like to know your answer to that. I think part of it, is insecurity. Because we all want to look for the complicated answer. So we read these complex business books with complex business strategies. And I’m not saying that those aren’t great. Yes. You should read those. However, that doesn’t satisfy a very, to me, obvious thing that you better be pretty good with people. If you want to get the most out of your people. And if you’re a leader, I think the definition of that is trying to get the most out of yourself and those people around you in order to feed your organization. So not stepping back and saying like, what did we learn in first grade? What did you learn in middle school? Just strikes me as a really good idea. And as I said, the coolness is science backs it up. And it turns out that lots of leaders need that reminder, which is good for my business. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

People forget. I mean, why do you think people need that reminder? Why do they forget about this? That it’s something so simple, but yet we get into the throws of work, and we just completely like that goes out the window. Why do you think people forget about that?

Brad Montgomery:

Well, I think that’s such a good question. And I’m going to answer it as though I have like the single answer, which obviously I don’t, but I’m going to make it sound like I do nail it. I want to hear it. We’re human. So like right now, any leader who’s listening to this, I know a lot about you. I know that you’re overwhelmed. And I know you’re worried about your aging parents or you’re worried about your kids or you’re worried about your siblings. And I know that there’s a lot of stress on your personal life. Even if you’re getting along really great with your partner, you’re with your partner all the time and that’s hard and you know, you’ve got stress cause you’re worried about shots and you’re worried about, I just know you’re overwhelmed and now you’re doing everything online and you’re dealing with change.

And this is on top of everything you were dealing with and let’s face it prior to March (2020), you were pretty overwhelmed too. Yeah. So, you know, you’re worried about your career and making your numbers or the quotas or whatever. And you’ve got to actually open those 122 emails. And I just know that even though I’d have to know you, I, I just know you’re nodding your head because that’s all of us right now. So the fact that any person who is that overwhelmed and I’m, I’m submitting it, everyone’s overwhelmed the fact that they’re not stopping to invest in people and stopping to think like, well, how could I make someone else’s day better? And would that, would that have any impact on my day? The fact that people don’t do that, it’s so normal. And so human. So we all need constant frequent reminders of, Oh yeah, don’t forget. You’re really good at this. But you sometimes get so busy with your stupid email and that new piece of software and the zoom meetings that never end you’re going to forget. So you got to listen to people like Jenn,

Jenn DeWall:

No, listen to people like you. Like, I love just thinking like, one piece is given yourself grace. Like you’ve got a lot going on. You’re not necessarily going to think, you know, in between worrying about getting sick or keeping your job or making those numbers, you’re not going to be like, but am I perfectly showing up as a great leader? It’s easy to forget about that when we feel those pressures are overwhelmed. I love that. How you described that. We’re not criticizing people that maybe have advice for how to do leadership, but it is just playing off the fact that we do remember that there are some very simple things we can do. We just forget. And I love that you’re going to open up a conversation again, as a reminder of why we need to position that.

Leadership Starts with Relationships

Brad Montgomery:

I think the first thing leaders need to remember is just calm the heck down. Right? We all want to get our, can’t wait to try this strategy. I read it in the most recent leadership book I read. Yeah. And that is a good idea, but it’s just insufficient without having a good relationship with those people, with whom you work, and with whom you, you, those people you sell to your customers and the copy boy and the barista at Starbucks and definitely your family. Yeah. You know, the people you live with your neighbors, everybody needs a little piece of you and just calming down and reminding yourself. Right. Okay. That is part of my mission on this planet. It’s part of the mission with your career as part of your mission with your organization,

Jenn DeWall:

I guess, do you feel like-or, maybe this is my perspective, do you think that we get, or just one way that I see it, do you think that sometimes we just get so bogged down with trying to be everything to everyone else’s expectations that we forget about the expectations of ourselves, of how we want to show up and be as a leader and how we want to be as a human. Like, is that where some of these feelings comes from? I don’t know, just talking just me.

Brad Montgomery:

Do you feel like, I think people who are in the beginning of their careers where it’s always the same, like imagine yourself that those first times you got that job or, you know, the first time someone tags you as, Oh, you’re management material, we’re going to start you in as leadership track then, you know, we’re so worried about, am I wearing the right clothes? Am I saying smart things at meetings? You know, all the, did I reference a business book that I read to prove that I have a brain? And the irony is that when we age into being better leaders, just because we’re older and more experienced, those things become less important. We’re kind of a leader regardless of what we wear. And we’re kind of a leader, even if we don’t quote a business leader or a thought leader and we’re kind of a leader, if we don’t always have the latest jargon. Right. And we just have that gravitas and isn’t that ironic that it, you have to kind of grow into it, sometimes give yourself that permission to say like, right, that is not leadership.

Jenn DeWall:

What do you have any, like when I think about something I had to grow into, like one of the pieces that I absolutely still work on is even just feedback of looking at leadership instead of looking at it as like, if someone’s giving me feedback, that means that I must be doing awful. I’m the worst person on the planet, which again, puts me further away from my colleague with who I’m supposed to be working with. Because I have a bad mood. You know, when you think about all that stuff as I think about ways that I’ve had to grow in and still growing, right. It’s still absolutely growing. We’ll be growing until the day that I am not here anymore. But curious if you have any ways that you feel like you’ve kind of aged into leadership through your lessons.

Confidence, Feedback and Vulnerability

Brad Montgomery:

To me, it’s all about confidence, which is related to that feedback, isn’t it? Yeah. Somebody comes up to you and says, Jenn, you are a total rock star. Let me tell you 12 reasons why you are a total rockstar. That sure feels a lot better than I need to give you some feedback. So like I think it speaks to us on both sides. Like if we’re that person receiving the feedback, it’s terrifying who wants that? There’s not one human on the planet who is super excited about a 360-degree review. That sucks. But I think the next thing is to use that as a tool, once we recognize that in ourselves and, and admit that that is true in every other person that makes us a kind of a super-powerful leader because we know that about everyone we’re leading and we know that all those people who we are reviewing or giving critical feedback to, they need, we know exactly what they need because they’re just like us. They want to be told they’re better or they want to, they want to be told that they’ve, they’re in the right job and they’re doing okay and they’re not, you’re not done yet, but you’re on the right path.

Jenn DeWall:

They had a coaching session today for Crestcom and you know, that was one of them, I think I’ve given the example like you’re not stupid just because you can’t do this. You’re not this, you’re not this. And you know, their first response is how did you get into my head? I’m like because everyone thinks that we’re all so dang rude to ourselves. We’re not kind. And we don’t hold space. And that’s, you know, that I guess is probably the first place that we kick out faulty programming because we forget to be nice to the person that needs it the most.

People Will Always Have Insecurities

Brad Montgomery:

I was listening 10 to this thing has now been two or three years. It was on national public radio. And they have this thing called StoryCorps where they just interview kind of it’s their most delightful stories. They were interviewing two different people. The first was like, I’m going to make it up-  82-year-old dude who had moved into an assisted living center or a nursing home five years ago. And he was talking to a younger person who was in her mid-sixties. And she was moving into an assisted living place for the first time because her husband really needed help. And she was just super terrified and insecure about what’s going to happen. What’s it going to be like, and this guy did I mention he’s over 80? He was saying, Oh man, when I came to this place, I was worried about, was I going to have friends when I have someone to eat with, would I fit in?

Would people want to be with me? Would I be lonely? And he’s explained to this younger woman like that’s how I felt. And it really worked out well for me. And I’m sure it will work for you too. But I was struck with, are you kidding me? We’re never going to get into junior high. And also, boy isn’t that powerful? Because if, if we can just remember that, okay, even 82-year-old successful people with nothing but a positive track record, if they’re insecure and needy and they crave the feeling of belonging, then maybe we can give it to those people who have earned it in our lives and you know, help move them forward. Which of course we know moves us forward.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Yes. I, that is a great story of just reminding us that we can’t escape this. There’s not going to be. And this is, I think maybe even comes full circle on the thing. There’s not going to be one right tool that will work for the rest of your life, that you can avoid this type of may be feeling like you want to be some more supported, connected, engaged, seen as valued. That it’s something that we have to do that work on ourselves. And it’s something that we have to continuously do work. And we can’t just read a book and like wash away all, you know, our feelings. Like that’s not ever how that’s going to create meaningful change and we’re going to likely need it again with the desk next to change, you know, for moving to a different facility, we’ll need to remind ourselves again. I love again that you’re bringing this up as a reminder. How would you, like, what are some of the ways that you try to remind people again, to focus on that people side of performance?

Brad Montgomery:

Well, you’ve been a victim to it already. Sorry. I was working on it! Well, you know, people respond to stories, and even very seasoned, experienced leaders still respond to a good old once upon a time. And I, I think if, like, for example, if that story about the 82-year-old talking to the 65-year-old appealed to you, just remember how it feels and then guesses what we all get to repeat that skill. Oh right. People remember things if it’s attached to a story. So I believe like when I talk about the people side of performance, I can write my message down on a sticky note. Jenn it’s like use emotional and social support strategically to build others up in order to help them get what they want, which by the way, helps you get what you want.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that you said to help them get what they want. Like, and then obviously it will do that. But people forget about that part because they to say, how can I get what I want? It doesn’t matter what they necessarily want because I need to do X or solve this or be at this place. I that’s a great,

Brad Montgomery:

It’s so interesting to me that you like that piece. Because I feel like the marketing part is the selfish piece. I think Jenn, I don’t know the answer to this. I’m curious what you say. It seems to me, leaders are frequently told you need to build others up so they can be better at their jobs. So we can build our numbers there. They’re told to, you know, come from a place of service, servant leadership, but we don’t often tell them what’s in it for you. Like, yeah, it’s good for your career. And I’m telling you, so I guess that’s your job, but oh, you know, wildly satisfying and gives you meaning and purpose. And then, by the way, it’ll just make you, you know, dollars will improve. Your bottom line will improve if you think of others. So that’s why I’m so fascinated. I think that the second part is the interesting, hidden part where you thought serving others was the interesting part.

Jenn DeWall:

It’s mainly the reason that I feel that way is because sometimes people have a reluctance to want to have someone else shine because then it comes back down to not wanting to maybe expose themselves as not being the best or the smartest or the fraud, you know, whatever the name society has for that. Like, and that’s why, because I think people sometimes then think, well, maybe it’s not about that. It’s the survival of the fittest thing. And I think trying to create that the wrong way. So I hear you. I absolutely agree. Like you have to think about others, but I think that that can be hard for some people, if you’re not standing in your own confidence, because you’re like, well, the second I make that better, then I’m just might as well just get my walking papers, walk right out the door. Like I think some people still have that. And then I empathize with them too, because I just wish I could be like, you are great just the way you are. You’re just shining your light on people, right?

Brad Montgomery:

Yeah. You and I are preaching from the same page I think, but I’m not, I’m not advocating we lie to people, but man, there’s a lot of compliments we can give without lying. Yeah. Encouragement. We don’t have to struggle to find

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and right now you got to work harder at that. If you’re still remote, I think people forget that they might have said something to someone walking by like, Hey, I really appreciate you that you don’t get to see anymore. And so then it just goes without being said, and it’s a missed opportunity. So I, yeah. It’s I know we’re, we’re speaking from similar pages, but I just appreciate the way that you, you talk about it. So starting with like thinking about for them, will you repeat that statement again? Because I, I do love that statement and how you defined it, right?

Brad Montgomery:

Oh, that’s so cute that you think I have that memorized. I don’t know.

Jenn DeWall:

You’re like, okay, nevermind. But I also love that too, because it’s not a canned response. It’s just thinking through of like, Hey, you’ve got to make sure that like if you want to be successful that you’re also thinking about their needs and you can help them grow. And it will also help you grow, give like trust in that. What would be like other pieces of how you would maybe advise someone to get better connected and more personal and I guess for lack of a better way? Because we’re all humans like the more human-centered. Yeah.

Brad Montgomery:

So I see what you’re doing and you’re doing a great job because you are a master interviewer. You’re trying to push me to the next topic. And here’s what I’m gonna do is just push back and say, Nope, we’re staying on the first topic because I think this first one is so big and it’s so important. And it’s really easy to say, Oh yeah, I got it. And then dismiss it that are just going to go right back to it. How’s that? That’s good. I think this is such a huge thing. And like we’re not when organizations have me come in and I speak for an hour to their leaders, I have one idea for 60 minutes. And I think the reason I’m successful at my job is that means I have five minutes to explain the idea and 55 minutes to convince them.

And I think it’s worth the time to not just have them understand it, but to feel it and feel like they care. So we’re back to social and emotional support as it relates to performance. I think a very concrete thing for people to think about is to give strategic or give compliments and encouragement strategically. And part of this is to get over yourself. And the next time you think yourself to yourself, well, they already know that they already know they’re doing a good job or there, they already know that I like them. They already know that I respect them. Next time you say to yourself that the answer is probably, yeah, they probably don’t or they haven’t heard it enough. Everybody craves that feeling of you’re doing a good job and I think virtual is worse. And two, this allowed me to tell you a story I’m ready. So Jenn did, as we record this, the Super Bowl was just yesterday. So you know, mammoth American football game and in the middle of they have the big halftime show, which means a pop singer, you know, holds the stage for 10 or 15 minutes, super prestigious to be that musician. And it was a guy called The Weeknd. Did you see the show? Yes.

Jenn DeWall:

I didn’t necessarily watch the game but I watched the show!

Brad Montgomery:

Here’s someone, this, this guy, you know, the top of his game and such a compliment to be asked to do this. And he does a massive complicated show for 10 minutes. And by the end, he’s kind of down on the football field himself with 150 dancers. And then he sings his last note and they cut to a commercial. And all I could think of right then is that guy immediately is texting his friend. Did it go, okay, how do I do? I don’t know. And what a lot of people would say like, well obviously you were the Pepsi star of the game, the halftime show. You’re obviously killing it. What other, what other hints do you need? That you’re a rockstar literally. And I’m, I’m telling you that guy was super insecure, right afterward going, did I suck? What’s Twitter saying, am I bombing or doing it?

The Power of Compliments

Brad Montgomery:

And to me that’s instructive because I feel like that I don’t know this guy named The Weeknd and maybe he’s a narcissist and does not feel that way. But my gut says he totally felt that way. And I think it’s just such a powerful reminder that that means those people who are reporting to you right now are at home and they’ve got kids at home or they have to find something to say to their partner at dinner again tonight, even though they’ve been working with them full time or like everybody’s just really having a tough day. And if you were to stop the tray and say, Oh Jenn, while you’re doing that interview today, you killed it. You’re, you know, I think your skill is good as you were, you’re getting better. And I can’t wait to see what’s next. Right? Why wouldn’t that make everybody on your team better if you took the time to do that?

Jenn DeWall:

I love that example. I mean, there are so many things that came to mind as you were sharing. You know, obviously, just even the reminder like you and I are in pretty, I would say very public-facing position. So, and I think, especially in the day of virtual where you don’t get the direct audience, it’s easy to be like, did anyone like this? It was the best performance ever. It doesn’t matter. But you know, so I think I can relate to that as an individual because it doesn’t matter how many, you know, great things that someone will say to me. It’s the one thing that someone says, that’s awful that I like still hold on to, even though I know that’s not what I’m supposed to do. Right. But if I think about a friend like a conversation I had with a friend today and they get recognized on LinkedIn for being a great leader and right? Great thing!

That’s something that one of their employees was like, I really appreciate your, you know, your leadership, your support. But this person was like, now I just feel really uncomfortable. And you know, why I think they feel uncomfortable is we’re not even used to giving feedback to the person up there. It needs it too. We’re so, you know, we think that we need to just push it down and we forget that it needs to go both ways. Like my friend, I’m like, what is this thing about you? Like, are you not valuing yourself or are you not seeing like your own, you know, efforts to, but I think that’s so important just to remind people that it doesn’t matter what level you’re on, if you’re The Weeknd and you’re just, you know, got done, doing a great Super Bowl performance that people really enjoyed. You still are texting your friend like that.

Brad Montgomery:

Right? Did I bomb? All I knew was the camera turned off and the football players came back on.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, that’s what a webinar is for, you know,

Brad Montgomery:

Any day of anybody’s life virtually when you send in the report or the project and your boss says like, got it. You know, like it took me four days. That’s it? Got it. That’s it? Does that mean you hate me? Does that mean my report sucks?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Yes. That’s absolutely the first place that people go. And I think that like, I mean when you study that human side, I think you do get it right. Like it is not just some like tool or framework. We have to understand how are we even show up as individuals before we’re starting to apply some of these great tools that are out there.

Leaders Need Hugs Too

Brad Montgomery:

It’s so funny. I think there are two steps. Because I’m usually when I’m asked to work with leaders, I’m reminding them to use this concept. Hey, when you strategically invest in others, it makes them better. And guess what? That’s good for you. So we teach them how to do that for others. But what I’ve learned also is that leaders crave the same thing. All the leaders I work with, they’re just like, they’re just like The Weeknd, right? Leaders are rarely told, Hey, you’re killing it. Wow. Yeah. It seems like you were good last year. I think you’re even better. That’s amazing. How are you getting better? Like leaders don’t get, they need hugs too. The leaders are care bears on the inside. They just hide it better. Everybody needs that basic human thing.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a good slogan- leaders need hugs too. Because if I think about the staff, when you are maybe a more visible part of your organization, you’re maybe a higher level organizationally leader. Yeah. The stuff that comes your way is going to be typically, like, if you think about that, it’s going to be criticisms. Like more like I’m frustrated or I don’t like this. And I don’t like that. And yes, I get it. It’s their job to be able to manage a certain level of that. But they still need to feel like you’re a human being that we care about. It’s not like they just sign up. Like I would like to accept all of your complaints and the things that you get from this company for the rest of my life. Because I just thought that would be really enjoyable

Brad Montgomery:

You know In the kiss-up category of the podcast. If you report to somebody, imagine how well, imagine how blown away you would be. If somebody who reports to you comes and says, Hey, you know what? I think you’re a good supervisor. I’ve learned with you. Thank you. You treat me well, I think you’re good at this. That would blow any of us away. Right. So, you know, you could do two things. One, if you encourage that person who leads you, especially if they deserve it, man, it wouldn’t not feel good. And by the way, wouldn’t that be a decent kiss-up?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, a decent kiss-up. But I wonder what your thoughts are on like even, Oh gosh, empowering someone to take that. Right? Because if our leader, I think if I, if I’m just going to use myself as an example, right. I’m a pretty ambitious person, incredibly hard on myself. So that means, you know, if someone writes me something really, you know, nasty after this like I don’t worry. I read it and I internalize it. I’m a human. It will hurt. But sometimes even on LinkedIn, like if I do something and someone writes me a message and they’re like, Jenn, you know, I appreciate it. X, Y, Z, you did this. Like, I still can’t even look at it because I’m like, I don’t know. I probably did something wrong. Then I missed it. Like, and so in that is legitimate, it was not until, and I’m not kidding, Brad.

It took me last week to finally go through a slew of LinkedIn messages and say, just say thank you to people because it was that hard. And I bring that up because I know that I’m not alone. Right? Like other people struggle too, but they just maybe don’t have a platform or they don’t know how to articulate that. Like, Hey, positive feedback is still really hard for me. So I would be curious even how you can get like what insights, not that you have to have an expert answer, but even thinking, how do we even get better at being kinder to ourselves to say like, we are even worried of like receiving that feedback.

Brad Montgomery:

I don’t know. If you figure that out, will you tell me because I need that too? There’s this cool study. I wish I could tell you what it is if I could remember, but Oh, a well-meant compliment that is equally well-received spills, dopamine, and serotonin into both people. All right. Let that soak in. So, I mean, I give you a compliment. I get a little dopamine, but if you don’t really accept it, well, I get less dopamine and you don’t get any. So that means there is a scientific benefit if you and I can become better at receiving compliments and become a little bit less worried about this. And, you know, take those compliments that I know you’re getting and, you know, let them wash over you. Because the givers, you know, when people give us compliments, they’re going out on a limb and it’s terrifying. I’m with you. It’s just not easy.

Jenn DeWall:

My husband up until last year read every single card that someone ever sent me because I couldn’t bear to read it. I can’t believe I’m saying all this, maybe this isn’t smart, but I do think it is important to talk about that because you bring up a really, really great piece that you’ve got to like also work at receiving it, right? Like people can tell, you know, if they’re going to get the benefit of that serotonin release in that connection, like you’ve got to also receive it and like, appreciate that someone took the time to be able to, to share with you, like the value that they have in you and like, and see like, maybe they are right. Like maybe there’s something that I’m not, you know, kind and reminding myself that I am there and just that you have to do the work, too of receiving it. I think that’s really good to actually show that if you want that to have the beautiful impact or the scientific impact that it can, and that overall improvement of our mood, like you, you have to show up too.

Brad Montgomery:

Yeah. So, but get this just like you when, whenever an organization, especially if they just let everybody in the audience do an evaluation, I hate those. I never ever look at them just like you, my partner, my wife reads them. And if they’re in the rule is if there’s something to be learned from it, she’ll pass it on as like, Oh, this person had criticism and it’s really valid. Then I look at it. But the ones that are like, I didn’t like your suit. I thought you talked fast or whatever. I don’t like the story of the dinosaur. I just not helpful. And I do you know, I’m like the rest of us, it doesn’t make my day better. It doesn’t make my business better. So I try to hide from it.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Like what if, like, how do you think work could just change? If we all just, all of a sudden said, you know what? You have thoughts that aren’t productive to what we’re doing. And I have thoughts that aren’t productive. Like, I mean, how do you think the work-life would change if we actually just saw each other?

The People Side of Criticism

Brad Montgomery:

Well, first of all, the planet would stop spinning and we’d just fly off. Yeah, wouldn’t that be? But that goes back to, I think that can be earned. And so back to the, our listeners, you know, I know everyone here is trying to improve their own leadership and their own culture. If it becomes your culture, that they trust you and know that you admire them and know that you trust them and know that you rely on them, then, then you have earned the chance to be a little bit more real with them without offending anybody. So I think you and I are agreeing, we’re not saying you don’t tell people when they’re making a mistake, you don’t tell people how they can improve. This is not what we’re talking about. We’re just making people feel safe, safe to take risks, safe, to grow, safe, to take criticism.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Well, and creating, you know, it’s all about that. And maybe this is, you know, just thinking about the, how we even say things like there, I’ve got, we’ve all gotten, you know, not great feedback from a boss, but what if that one piece of feedback was just said, even in a, in a more human way, like as if you were a person with feelings, I wonder how that would have actually changed whether or not you needed, you know, someone broke down in tears or whether or not you had to schedule a follow-up meeting because the meeting was derailed. Like just thinking, you know, what level of sensitivity should I have or how could I say this in a way that, because yeah, we’re not saying like, you know what, the key to this is just assuming that we’re all just nailing it, killing it past, never, ever try to make someone that’s not life.

And we know that that’s not the reality, but I mean, it’s still trying to be kind and understand that we’re all sitting in very similar shoes of our own criticism. And matter of fact, like whatever you’re adding on, probably doesn’t even touch like how someone is, I guess my favorite quote. I know. And I’m sure you’ve read this book. Like I love it from The Four Agreements is the greatest abuse the human will ever endure is the abuse inflicted upon them by themselves. And when you think about that kindness, just as a starting point, like know that if someone groups up as an employee, they are likely ruminating it and they still need to hear it, they need to understand like the consequences, but you don’t avoid it.

Brad Montgomery:

Right. And you know, there, there is because I’m a motivational speaker, so I’m paid to be optimistic. So I get that. And there is ugly side of this business, which is, some people are not going to respond and they need to be pruned. And then you’ve got an HR problem. So all that exists, some people are not meant to be on your team, but for those people you’ve committed to, I’d say they probably could use your, they could stand to invest a little bit, which just means get up, leave your chair, walk to them, metaphorically people. It’s a pandemic. Don’t be crazy, but you know, walk to them and maybe be nice.

Jenn DeWall:

Ask them how they’re doing. How are you doing today? And not just waiting for them to say fine. So then you can walk away and check the box.

The People Side of Performance Management

Brad Montgomery:

I was talking to this leader and it’s relevant that she’s a woman, she’s a kick woman. She’s near retirement age. So she kind of busted through corporate America when it was really hard because of the way our society works. She, you know, she’s a total rockstar. And she was telling me these stories of how she mentors younger women and how this woman was really struggling and whatever. And she finally found out this, a woman’s going through some major troubles in her personal life, but it took weeks for this. The woman was about to be fired. And it took weeks for the younger woman to say like, okay, here’s, what’s really happened. And I’m not positive what my point is, but you know that leader rocks and guess what she did not fire that younger woman. And she pulled that in. And that, that younger woman will now kill for her. See, she has got a forever ally in that younger person and a younger person still has all the tools. You just had a tough year. But what was striking for me is that the more experienced leader knew that this is about people. This is not about metrics, and it’s not about the report or the, you know, what is the work product this week? It’s about people.

Jenn DeWall:

You know, just thinking about how people sometimes need to be open, to changing their assumptions, changing the judgments that they’re having for someone else, if they truly want to have that connection and to be able to help someone like maybe that story that you shared to that woman could have been a really valuable team member. And then life happened. Something happened outside of work. They’re not, we’re not supposed to talk about that because I still think that myth lives on and work that we’re supposed to somehow keep that stuff separate is. So I’d love to know the person that can do that. I would save myself so much stress if I could just turn it on and off, but no, I wouldn’t want to be that person. But like, you know, just knowing that coming at it from the human perspective, you then retain that institutional knowledge. You obviously built high engagement. As you were saying, that person will want to work for you. They’re going to be very committed to you. Like, I don’t know. I just wish people would challenge. Like maybe what else, what else? You know, like being curious, what am I missing?

Brad Montgomery:

Well, I think you nailed it. You said what would happen in our world if everybody just committed to showing up like, wow, that was such a simple and brilliant sentence. You go, Jenn,

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t know. I can’t repeat anything. But what, I mean, what, what does it mean in terms of, you know, I’m curious what your perspective is on how we show up, like what if we’re having an off day. Right. And we maybe have had, let’s just say that we’re in that place of overwhelm, that we have a tendency to live, like, you know, we’re overwhelmed, we’ve got a lot going on. And then all of a sudden it doesn’t matter who it was. They happened to come into our Zoom meeting and we’re just frustrated. We take it out on them. What does a human-centered approach look like from your perspective of even being able to recover when we’re not showing up? Maybe in that place that we could be?

Brad Montgomery:

Yeah. That’s an interesting question. I don’t, I’ve never been asked that. Well, I don’t know, but I’m married. So I have a lot of experience trying to live with the same person for 27 years. So I’m killing it. Yeah,

Jenn DeWall:

You are. Congratulations.

Brad Montgomery:

You know, part of what I’m learning with Kim is like, when you screw up, you better be pretty quick to apologize. And it definitely helps. It helps me when Kim is having a tough day and tells me, Oh, I’m really grumpy because of this, like, boy, doesn’t that just help it. Then we give them more, more space. So it seems like that ought to account in the business world too, just to say, my dog died, I’m really grumpy and sensitive and I’m going to need a little, I’m going to just, I need you to be supportive today. I’ll do my best more if I snapped at you, I’m sorry. My dog died.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Even asking, just for permission, whether it’s maybe to your boss, like just seeing like, Hey, would it be okay if you know, I had my camera off during this zoom meeting because this happened and I’m not going to be showing up. Right. Like, or to the boss, like if they even said, you know what, maybe we can push our team meeting to tomorrow because this just might be better given what’s going on. Like, we have people feel like we need to put on our armor and just carry out the task, like without ever having any type of adjustment to plan. Even if there is an adjustment to the plan.

Brad Montgomery:

When I was a very young man, like just like a couple of years out of college, I’m a comedian, a magician, that was my full-time job. And I had these, this is back pre-internet and I would take these press packets that I had made at Kinko’s copy back when there was a Kinko’s copy. And I drove him to the postman and sent these packets out and I, the postman said, well, okay, you want stamps? What do you want? Do you want the business stamps or the flag stamps or the heart stamps? And they said, Oh, flag stamps. I don’t want the love stamps. This is business. You know, picture of this very young guy, well it’s business and this postman. So it was the choice was love or business. And he said, why not both? Whatever. He put stupid flags on my thing.

Love is Good Business

Brad Montgomery:

So, but then I did think about it later. Like, yeah, why is love was separated for business? And I am not a very touchy, feely guy. So, anyone who was freaking out- thinking he’s talking about love and business– run! Not really, but I am saying all of the things that are true with us in our personal relationships, caring and commitment and vulnerability and you know, just honesty. There is no reason to think those things don’t work in business too. Whether they’re your clients or your people who report to you or the people to whom you report all those things are still there. Love. So I’m not, you know, don’t get, I don’t, don’t write me a letter. I’m not saying love on your employees, but I’m kinda saying like, love on your employees.

Jenn DeWall:

I, you know, maybe I don’t even remember, but like, thinking about hearing this, right? We complicate careers, everything all of a sudden, when it comes down to the career gen versus the, you know, the outside Jenn has to be a different person. Well, we don’t realize our careers become our little mini families. And how would you want a family to operate? Like, what are the things that you want in a good family? Is it active listening? Is it support? Is it love? But yet, somehow something that we now spend more time with than probably our own families where like, that, that stuff probably doesn’t work there. I don’t know. Cause that’s

Brad Montgomery:

I don’t want them to know anything about the real me, haha!

Jenn DeWall:

I know we can joke because obviously Brad and I are pretty open about this, but we also obviously are sensitive to the fact that it can be really hard. Like how would you even get someone to start to like, to just, I mean, I know I, like, what do you do if you make a mistake? You got to own it. But what if someone is still really programmed or around that belief that I don’t know, I have to keep these separate because if I show them that I’m like this, they may, I might lose my credibility. Right, right. Or I might, you know, lose my impact with them. Like how do you maybe tell that person that’s really reluctant? Like what is maybe one thing they could do to like, try to build that up a little bit to flex that muscle? I mean, there’s a lot of things that can do, but like, I’m just curious where from your perspectives, maybe some of the things that you’ve seen have an impact on people.

Brad Montgomery:

Well, the people who are the most- their armor is the thickest. Their shell is the thickest, you know, first, it’s like, do you really know it? Because you know, some people work with me and don’t think they’re like that. And they’re just wrong about themselves. They think they are open, but you know, any four-year-old would say like, I’ve never seen you have an emotion. You’re not open. I don’t even know if you have, do you have a mother? I don’t even know. So maybe the first step is just to challenge people to say like, where do you think you are on a scale? How vulnerable are you? And you know, and if you’re interested in being a little bit more, more vulnerable, and I’m not saying you have to be, but I’m just saying science teaches us. It’ll make you a better leader.

So if you want to be more vulnerable, maybe you either physically write out a list or in your mind talk about what would be the least risky things to do on that. To let your people know you have a personality and what would be the riskiest things. And then guess what avoid the riskiest things and start with easy ones. So for some people, it’s going to be literally smiling at work. It’s going to be crazy little stuff for it’s that IBM crowd who was told, you’ve got to stand up out of your chair. You got to leave your chair and talk to people if you want to be a leader, you know, like these are very, very small. The bar is tiny. And then, you know, obviously, you don’t even want to look to see if there’s any success. Hey, if you smile at work or a smile at that meeting, how will that change the tone? See if you can tell, Hey, if you just take a chance and give somebody the lamest compliment and say like, Hey, your report was turned in on time. Well, job well done. See how they respond. Meaning just be safe.

Jenn DeWall:

I liked that you gave a ranking system because I think that is helpful because I think when people hear the word vulnerability, it’s like, well, how much of my secrets? Or what do I need to share? Like, I don’t know. You know, and that brings up a different thing, but you’re just recommending, you know, rank them like, look at what would be something that’s small. I don’t, you don’t have to do your high, you know, vulnerable things. That’s not what we’re saying enough. Just spill all your secrets, but it could be as simple as smiling, which I don’t, I don’t know if you have this observation, but one of my favorite things about the pandemic now is I smile at strangers so much more because they can’t tell,

Brad Montgomery:

Oh, I’m killing it in the smiling department! And they don’t know!

Jenn DeWall:

I think they can feel the energy!

Brad Montgomery:

Can they tell my eyes are smiling?

Jenn DeWall:

But I seriously, I really actually do that because I’m like, I know that it’s something I want to continue to get better at because I know smiling can go a long way. And if underneath the mask, if that makes me feel less vulnerable or less like, Oh my gosh, they’re going to think I’m, you know, strange because I’m smiling at them. I love that the mask is kind of this cover that I can still smile at them and flex that muscle. Even though that might be a situation that if I didn’t have a mask on, like I would be like, so that’s one of the ways that I’m actually practicing.

Brad Montgomery:

You’re doing it partly as an exercise for yourself.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh yeah.

Brad Montgomery:

Oh, oh, that’s so cool.

Jenn DeWall:

Because I can smile at people that I meet face to face, but I still have the same types of like, you know, walls with people. And I just want to get to know other people or just be kind to someone for not knowing. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s my new things. I’m like, I’m just going to smile at them and they won’t know necessarily, or

Brad Montgomery:

That is such a concrete exercise.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. If you can do it all the time at work, if you’re wearing this at work and you’re sitting in a meeting, you could smile at people and then you’re that benefit for yourself. And hopefully, it’s practice for outside of that.

Brad Montgomery:

Oh, that’s such a concrete idea. I love that. Oh my gosh. I’d be curious. Like I think maybe for you, Jenn, it’s slightly awkward to be smiling. Like, Hey, I know you can’t even tell him smiling, but I’m practicing, which is probably a hint. Right? If, if you’re feeling a little awkward smiling, then you know, maybe that your exercise is worth doing.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Well, and it’s not, I can feel comfortable, you know, I can do it smile very well. Like, you know, on the podcast or teaching. But yeah, like it’s not like I, all of a sudden, I just see a human being and I’m like, let’s figure out how we can feel comfortable with each other. No, I still have all the same stuff. They might think I’m strange. They might not like me. They made that, you know, do this. Okay. I’m just going to try and smile with my mask on.

Brad Montgomery:

There’s this guy I’m thinking of. Who needs to try that? A guy I went to school with and now he’s a hotshot corporate leader. If you asked him, he’d probably say I’m a lovable curmudgeon. I’m kind of grumpy, but everyone loves me. They know I love them and kind of difficult, but you know, in a way that they all know and it’s not true, he’s just grumpy. No one knows he’s a lovable curmudgeon. They just think he’s grumpy. And for that guy to smile under his mask, his practice would be brilliant. I mean, what a great exercise for that guy to see like, yeah, you should be doing us a lot and it should be awkward. And then once you take the mask off, you don’t have to smile all the time, but just 100th of the time for you, it would be a major win.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. All you have to do is push past the awkwardness of smiling at someone. You’re like, why do we get weird about that?

Brad Montgomery:

I can picture someone listening to this thinking, well, I’m serious, I’m a leader of a big company or a big organization or whatever. I can’t just go in and smile. Like I don’t think that’s what either one of us is saying. We’re just saying some events or times or phrases or whatever have earned smiles and you better be the first one to offer it up.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes! And just try, I don’t, you know, it’s so we age into leadership, but I’m curious, what else? Like just after a conversation, like what are the other things that we age into, you know, the rules about like, we’ve got to be a serious worker to show someone, you know, that we’re also programming that stuff too like that we, you know, what’s the opportunity to reprogram some of these things that we’ve aged into that aren’t serving us that is getting us further from walking around the office, having a conversation with someone and recognizing they want that too. But I know we have got to wrap this up out of curiosity. So you, you work with organizations, like, what is your favorite thing about delivering this talk? Like what do you love about delivering this talk you give?

What’s Your Favorite Part of Motivational Speaking?

Brad Montgomery:

I have a good answer. Yeah. Let’s stick a question. What’s your favorite part? You go girl. My favorite is the compliments, but only a specific type. So I love everyone who loves compliments and it’s very nice when you walk off stage and people say, Oh, I really liked it. And they want to take a selfie or whatever. That’s very nice. But my favorite is when you have that group of people that want to meet you or shake your hand or ask you a question or take a selfie, but then you look up, I call them the lurkers. Their people are at the periphery and they’re kind of waiting for everyone else to leave. And my, and they’re usually men. And I like it when they come in and they’re always those quiet kind of the silent types. And they’re like, I usually hate this kind of crap. It was just of, I hate this motivational mumbo jumbo, but that was really good. It really helped. And sometimes they have, they do rarely, they rarely cry, but sometimes their eyes are a little moist. And who knows what they’re thinking of? Like something, they heard reminded them of their brother or their kid or their wife who’s ill or who knows what. But gosh, I love those because that just makes me, I feel like those are the- that’s my target audience. The people who are really touchy, feely come up and like, I’ve won them over before I started. Because they already liked the concept. The people who are super resistant to it. I love that.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. That’s well, and because you can see from the people that come up at the end, just how much of an impact, maybe they don’t articulate it, but as you said, you can visibly see it and just how they share it. And I think it’s, I love that message that you’re bringing to the world because I think there are people that are maybe a little bit hardened or maybe they just have lost the belief that like we do all want the same things or maybe we’re just, you know, we’ve, we’ve built up these walls and I love that you provide a platform to remind us that we’re all more alike than we are ever different.

Brad Montgomery:

Well, I think that can be our superpower. If you just remember how overwhelmed you feel right now and how much you just crave, having someone tell you like, no you’re doing fine. You can turn that around and make that your superpower. Cause you can satisfy that need in others and see where that will take you. It’s awesome.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Make it a superpower! Brad, how can people get in touch with you? Like if they wanted to book you for a keynote, where, where do they go to?

How to Find Brad

Brad Montgomery:

Smoke signals are best. Start smoking. It takes a while, or it’s finger paint. Just kidding. My website is my name. My name is Brad Montgomery and BradMontgomery.com gets you to what I do for organizations and I do some coaching and I’ve got a podcast, whatever you’re interested in. I’d love to love to be part of it.

Jenn DeWall:

The world needs more Brad Montgomery. Brad, thank you so much for coming in and just talking about such a sensitive, emotional, but so essential topic. I just really appreciate you sharing your humor and your stories and your insights with us. Thank you so much

Brad Montgomery:

Jenn DeWall, you rock. I’m so grateful. Thanks for having me.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. If you want to check in with Brad, you can go over to his site, BradMontgomery.com, connect with him on LinkedIn, book him as a keynote. And of course, if you find or know someone that could really benefit from really thinking about how they can deepen the relationships that they have with their team, please share this podcast episode with them. And of course, if you liked this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.

 

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