The Way Out Is In
Mindful Economics: In Conversation with Kate Raworth (Episode #74)
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Kate Raworth's Doughnut Economics framework seeks to harmonize human well-being with ecological sustainability by visualizing social and environmental boundaries.
- The importance of community is emphasized, illustrating how shared experiences can foster trust, vulnerability, and deeper connections among individuals.
- A shift towards recognizing human complexity over traditional self-interest advocates for collaborative economies that prioritize community health and interconnection.
- Mindfulness practices are integrated throughout the conversation, encouraging awareness of interconnectedness and gratitude in daily life and interactions.
Deep dives
Zen and the Art of Saving the Planet
An online course titled Zen and the Art of Saving the Planet has been announced, which invites participants to explore mindfulness in relation to climate action. Scheduled for seven weeks beginning on October 20, 2024, the course will be guided by Zen Master Tiki Han and feature new teachings, community sharing groups, and live events with monastic teachers. Participants will learn to cultivate insight, compassion, and community actions to better their climate response during the course and will retain access to all teachings for one year post-completion. This initiative aims to weave mindfulness practices into the pursuit of environmental stewardship.
Understanding Donut Economics
The conversation introduces Donut Economics, a framework proposed by economist Kate Rayworth that seeks to balance human needs within the planet's ecological limits. The donut concept visualizes social and ecological boundaries, aiming to prevent anyone from falling into the 'hole' of unmet needs while staying within the outer limits of environmental sustainability. Emphasizing the idea that economic growth should not surpass ecological stability, this approach redefines traditional economic models to focus on shared resources and planetary health. The goal is to create a fair and equitable economy that meets everyone's needs while preserving Earth's life support systems.
Nurturing Human Nature
In discussing economic models, the notion of nurturing human nature emerges as crucial, countering the traditional view of individuals as self-interested beings. It advocates recognizing human complexity, supporting collaboration rather than competition, and prioritizing community well-being over mere consumption. This shift in perspective aligns with the values of interconnection and moderation often highlighted in Buddhist teachings. By fostering economies that support distributive and regenerative practices, the aim is to transform the way humans interact with one another and the Earth.
The Importance of Community
The podcast emphasizes the significance of community in both personal and collective welfare, showcasing how shared experiences can strengthen bonds. Through communal activities like preparing meals or participating in Dharma sharing sessions, individuals cultivate trust and vulnerability. The discussion highlights that a supportive environment encourages people to express their true selves and nurture interbeing, deepening connections with others. Building such communities can be transformative, as members collectively aim for a common purpose grounded in compassion and understanding.
Reflections on Consumption and Moderation
A deeper contemplation on consumption reveals how societal pressures lead to excessive materialism fueled by a fear of inadequacy and suffering. The need for moderation in consumption is underscored, aligning with Buddhist practices aimed at alleviating greed and fostering a sense of sufficiency. Rather than seeking happiness through external validations or possessions, the discussion advocates for an understanding rooted in self-acceptance and connection to the earth. This shift can lead to healthier consumption patterns and a more sustainable approach to living.
Navigating Fame and Connection
The complexities of recognition and fame are explored, noting the potential distancing effect such labels can create between individuals. Despite having a public presence through platforms like TED Talks, the speaker emphasizes remaining grounded and accessible, aiming to foster genuine connections. Personal anecdotes illustrate how fame can create barriers, yet highlight the shared human experience that transcends titles. By encouraging meaningful interactions that transcend superficial encounters, the aim is to build authentic relationships based on mutual understanding.
Lessons in Mindfulness
The theme of mindfulness reverberates throughout the discussion, focusing on being present both in daily life and interactions with others. Participants reflect on practical applications of mindfulness, such as meals enjoyed as a community where gratitude for all elements involved is expressed. By nurturing an awareness of the interconnectedness of all things, there’s a call to bring these practices into everyday living, promoting a more compassionate approach to life. The conversations aim to inspire ongoing mindfulness and reflection as individuals navigate their personal and collective journeys.
Welcome to episode 74 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.
In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino are joined by special guest Kate Raworth, the creator of Doughnut Economics, to discuss from spirituality to new economic thinking; individual, community, and planetary boundaries; putting ideas into practice; practicing true love and no self; avoiding the trap of fame; and much more.
Kate shares her journey into reimagining economics; the encounters that shaped her vision; regenerative enterprises and the inspiring communities making new economics a reality; and the discoveries made after attending a Plum Village retreat with her family.
Kate Raworth is the creator of the Doughnut of social and planetary boundaries, co-founder of Doughnut Economics Action Lab, and author of the internationally bestselling Doughnut Economics: Seven Ways to Think like a 21st Century Economist. She is a Senior Associate at Oxford University’s Environmental Change Institute, and Professor of Practice at Amsterdam University of Applied Sciences.
Over the past 25 years, Kate’s career has taken her from working with micro-entrepreneurs in the villages of Zanzibar to co-authoring the Human Development Report for the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) in New York, followed by a decade as Senior Researcher at Oxfam. Read more about her work on her website.
Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/
And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/
With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/
List of resources
Online course: Zen and the Art of Saving the Planet
https://plumvillage.org/courses/zen-and-the-art-of-saving-the-planet
Interbeing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing
Doughnut Economics Action Lab
https://doughnuteconomics.org
Doughnut Economics: Seven Ways to Think like a 21st Century Economist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut_Economics:_Seven_Ways_to_Think_Like_a_21st-Century_Economist
‘Five Contemplations before Eating’
https://www.parallax.org/mindfulnessbell/article/five-contemplations-before-eating/
Biocentrism
https://www.britannica.com/topic/biocentrism
Lily Cole
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lily_Cole
The Raft Is Not the Shore
https://www.parallax.org/product/the-raft-is-not-the-shore/
‘Begin Anew’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/begin-anew
Club of Rome
https://www.clubofrome.org/
The Art of Power
https://www.parallax.org/product/art-of-power/
Herman Daly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Daly
Chants: ‘The Three Refuges’
https://plumvillage.org/library/chants/the-three-refuges
Wellbeing Alliance
https://www.culturehealthandwellbeing.org.uk/
Economy for the Common Good
https://www.econgood.org
Elinor Ostrom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom
International Monetary Fund (IMF)
https://www.imf.org/en/Home
TED Talk: A Healthy Economy Should Be Designed to Thrive, Not Grow
https://www.ted.com/talks/kate_raworth_a_healthy_economy_should_be_designed_to_thrive_not_grow?subtitle=en
Barbara Ward
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Ward,_Baroness_Jackson_of_Lodsworth
Marilyn Waring
https://marilynwaring.com/
Donella Meadows
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donella_Meadows
Janine Benyus
https://biomimicry.org/janine-benyus
Quotes
“Doughnut economics is one way of trying to create an economics that actually is based on this planet, and lives on Earth. Economics, when you go back to ancient Greek, literally means the art of household management.”
“We need to create economies that are distributive by design, that share resources with all, that are regenerative by design, that regenerate the living systems, and that go beyond growth. That’s the essence of doughnut economics.”
“A volition and aspiration is a nutriment. It’s an energy to help us keep going. And the Buddha also gives us another antidote: aimlessness, which is to help us have an aspiration, but not think that, once we’ve arrived and completed that aspiration, that’s when we finally touch happiness.”
“Man is not our enemy. It is ignorance, it is discrimination, it is ideology.”
“I have arrived, I am home.”
“In the light of Plum Village teaching, that joy and happiness is not money, it is not success in wealth and in fame, but it is in the mindfulness that in this moment I have eyes to see, I have a family to love, I have a community to be with. I can forgive my parents, my ancestors, because I am their continuation. I am renewing them in this moment.”
“I wrote a book, but actually it’s the practitioner, the people who want to try it and do it, that turn ideas on a page into a reality.”
“The Buddha did not say that on the shore there’s no suffering. It’s how to be free, even in our suffering, how to still touch happiness while there are storms and misunderstandings.”
“Don’t try to be the movement, join the movement.”
“One of the chapters I wrote in Doughnut Economics is called ‘Nurture Human Nature’, and it starts with looking at ‘rational economic man’, a character that is taught in mainstream economics; it’s the individual, the autonomous, atomized individual, self-interested. He’s got money in his hand, ego in his heart, calculating in his head, nature at his feet. He hates work. He loves luxury. And he knows the price of everything, and he can never get enough.”
“The definition of economics is the management of scarce resources for unlimited wants, the self-interest. So the models we make of ourselves remake us. An economist called Robert Frank and his colleagues did research finding that students who go to university from year one to year two to year three of studying economics, the more they learn about rational economic man, the more they admire him, the more they value self-interest and competition over collaboration and altruism.”
“Who we tell ourselves we are shapes who we become. And this is a critical insight, not just for economics, but for any discipline, indeed any art, any belief system that tells us who we are. It remakes us.”
“If you were holding a tiny baby and their temperature hit 40 degrees, would you say, ‘You go, girl, you burst through that boundary.’ No. You would do everything you can because when something is a living being, we know that life thrives within boundaries. Our bodies give us signals about boundaries all day.”
“We’re all probably lightly sweating now because today’s going to become 40 degrees and our bodies will sweat trying to calm themselves down. Or we shiver when we try to warm up. Or our stomachs will rumble if we’re really hungry or we’re thirsty. So we thrive within boundaries and rules give us a freedom. And when those rules are shared and we know others are following those rules, it allows all of us to be free and to enjoy something, and to come out and be truly ourselves and vulnerable and open, because there’s a deep trust.”
“I am a drop in a river and we’re going together and there’s no hurry and nowhere to get to.”
“Practice first, theorize later.”
“People in a place utterly know their context and know what would be useful and know what would be possible and what they have energy and excitement to try.”
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