Renée DiResta, a leading expert on misinformation, shares her insights on the complexities of the digital information landscape. She discusses how social media has transformed propaganda into a tool for manipulation, affecting public perception, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic. Renée highlights the rise of vaccine hesitancy and the challenges faced by public health authorities in combatting online misinformation. The conversation also critiques the notion of social media as a public square, emphasizing its role in fostering confrontation rather than meaningful dialogue.
Renée DiResta highlights the shift from traditional mass media propaganda to targeted social media tactics that exploit niche communities.
The concept of 'asymmetry of passion' reveals how motivated small groups can create misleading illusions of consensus, drowning out moderates.
Audience capture serves to propagate extreme views within online communities, effectively stifling genuine discourse and fostering polarization.
Deep dives
Trump's National Association of Black Journalists Appearance
Trump's appearance at the National Association of Black Journalists highlighted both his performance style and the implications of his statements. He faced a tough question from an ABC News journalist that seemed to set the tone for a chaotic interaction. Observers noted his outdated rhetoric and questionable assertions regarding Vice President Kamala Harris's racial identity, which sparked outrage. Despite the absurdity of some of his claims, Trump was able to speak fluidly, contrasting the perception of him and Biden as political leaders.
Challenges for Kamala Harris
Kamala Harris is at a crossroads, facing accumulated video and audio evidence from her past campaign that could hinder her future political aspirations. The conversation emphasized the necessity for her to reposition herself toward centrist views, especially given the potentially explosive topics that could arise during interviews or debates, such as police funding and gender identity laws. Failure to navigate these sensitive issues could leave her vulnerable to significant backlash within the Democratic Party. If she sidesteps these challenges in favor of broader subjects like Trump’s corruption, it could ultimately backfire on her.
Renee DiResta's Focus on Misinformation
Renee DiResta, a researcher with deep expertise in propaganda and misinformation, discussed her new book and the state of the information landscape. Her work, rooted at the Stanford Internet Observatory, investigates how foreign powers manipulate information technologies to sway public opinion and impact elections. DiResta highlighted the growing threats from health misinformation and voting-related rumors, emphasizing the importance of integrity in democratic processes. Her insights challenge the notion of a 'censorship industrial complex' by showcasing the real impacts of misinformation.
The Evolution of Propaganda in the Digital Age
DiResta outlined how communication technology has transformed the nature of propaganda, shifting it from mass media to more targeted, niche communities. The accessibility of social media allows for intricate targeting and niche messaging, which can lead to a fragmented public opinion landscape. Unlike historical mass propaganda efforts, today's tactics can efficiently reach specific demographics, often outside the visibility of mainstream discourse. This shift underscores the potential for misinformation to dominate smaller, closely-knit online communities.
Asymmetry of Passion and Illusion of Consensus
The podcast delves into the phenomenon of 'asymmetry of passion' where highly motivated, small groups create the illusion of consensus, overshadowing the voices of moderate individuals. By organizing coordinated efforts to dominate conversations on social media, these groups can manipulate perceptions of majority opinion. As a result, strategies such as algorithmic curation can amplify this misrepresentation, leading to misjudgments about societal sentiment. This dangerous dynamic can create environments where differing viewpoints are marginalized, leaving the loudest voices unchallenged.
The Role of Audience Capture in Misinformation
Audience capture has become a significant factor in the degradation of honest discourse, where influencers exploit niche audiences to gain popularity and profit. This phenomenon fosters an environment that rewards extreme views, discouraging moderate stances in favor of more sensational narratives. Some individuals become radicalized as they cater to their followers' expectations, leading to a potential perpetual cycle of extreme viewpoints. As a result, online spaces often lack diverse perspectives, reflecting increasingly polarized communities.
Sam Harris speaks with Renée DiResta about the state of our information landscape. They discuss the difference between influence and propaganda, shifts in communication technology, influencers and closed communities, the asymmetry of passion online and the illusion of consensus, the unwillingness to criticize one's own side, audience capture, what we should have learned from the Covid pandemic, what is unique about vaccines, Renée's work at the Stanford Internet Observatory, her experience of being smeared by Michael Shellenberger and Matt Taibbi, Elon Musk and the Twitter files, the false analogy of social media as a digital public square, the imagined "censorship-industrial complex," the 2024 presidential election, and other topics.
Renée DiResta is a social media researcher and the author of Invisible Rulers: The People Who Turn Lies Into Reality. Her work focuses on adversarial abuse online, including child safety issues, spammers and scammers, and influence campaigns run by state actors. From 2019 to 2023, she was the Technical Research Manager at the Stanford Internet Observatory, a cross-disciplinary program of research, teaching, and policy engagement for the study of abuse in current information technologies.
Renée has advised Congress and the executive branch, as well as academic, civic, and business organizations on technology policy and trust & safety topics, including information operations, generative AI, election security, data transparency, and child safety.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
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