Season 5 Episode 32: Debating Sohrab Ahmari on Tyranny Inc. + Cushbomb in the Postgame
Sep 15, 2023
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Sohrab Ahmari, a conservative social democrat, discusses his book on private power in America. Ben and Sohrab agree on issues but disagree on socialism. They analyze changing political stances, distracting issues like Russia, the impact of a movie, and complexities of a strike. They explore Catholicism's influence and pursuing the common good. The podcast also touches on misconceptions about American economic views, class compromise, and power accountability in democratic governance.
The founding generation in America recognized the importance of maintaining self-government through modest property ownership and a society with equal land distribution.
The American tradition encompasses both equality of opportunity and equality of outcomes, and the push for social mobility emerged when American society became more hierarchical.
Achieving social democracy and long-term class compromise is possible, as shown by historical evidence from different countries.
Deep dives
The Historical American Tradition
The idea that the American tradition is solely focused on equality of opportunity and social mobility is a historical oversimplification. The founding generation, especially in the Jeffersonian tradition, recognized the importance of a society with modest property ownership to maintain self-government. They were wary of the vast disparities in wealth and believed in providing as few people as possible with a share of land. The focus on social mobility and the belief that anyone can rise to the top regardless of their background didn't emerge until the late 19th century. The push for social mobility became more prominent when American society became more hierarchical and class distinctions became harder to overcome. The founding generation had a vision of a more equal outcome, but this shifted with the rise of social mobility rhetoric.
Disagreement with Paul Ryan
The ideology that the American tradition is only about equality of opportunity and social mobility is an oversimplification. Paul Ryan and others have championed this view, claiming that the American dream is about upward mobility and not equality of outcomes. However, this view neglects the historical context and the founding generation's belief in a more equal outcome. It also fails to recognize that the push for social mobility emerged when American society became more hierarchical, making equal outcomes more elusive. This oversimplified view disregards the historical reality of the American tradition and the importance of both opportunity and equality of outcomes.
Critique of Orthodox Marxism
Orthodox Marxism argues that long-term class compromise is not achievable due to macroeconomic reasons, such as the falling rate of profit. However, historical evidence from different countries suggests that achieving social democracy and long-term class compromise is possible. This shows that achieving an equitable political economy is more contingent on political dynamics and class forces rather than just macroeconomic laws. The macroeconomic critique of long-term class compromise is not insurmountable, and there is potential for a more equitable political economy that upholds both opportunity and equality of outcomes.
Pragmatic and Principled Reasons
There are both pragmatic and principled reasons to go beyond just class compromise and strive for a more equitable political economy. Pragmatically, even if achieving class compromise is not macroeconomically impossible, there can still be political instability due to the conflicting interests of different classes. This can lead to challenges and attempts to renegotiate the compromise in favor of one class over another. Principally, an economy based on private ownership of assets and a class division between owners and non-owners is inherently at odds with democratic ideals. Striving for a more equitable and collective ownership-based economy aligns more closely with democratic principles and can help create a society that is more just and equitable for all.
Challenges of General Collectivization
The podcast episode discusses the challenges and potential negative consequences of achieving a society with general collectivization of all modes of social organization. The speaker argues that while certain areas like healthcare and transport industries could be collectively owned, a general collectivization of all social organization could lead to the emergence of new power elites and social hierarchies. The speaker highlights historical attempts at building classless societies in the 20th century that ended in calamity and emphasizes the need for a pragmatic approach that balances market mechanisms and democratic accountability.
Debating Hierarchy and Democracy
The podcast explores the tension between hierarchy and democracy in the context of achieving worker-owned firms and eliminating capitalist property relations. The speaker argues that even in a society where everything is run by worker councils, there would still be managerial functions and potential resentment towards those who hold positions of power. The debate delves into the possibility of taming hierarchy through countervailing power, unions, and a social democratic state versus striving for a more direct democratic control of power. The conversation draws parallels between political democracy and the desirability of eliminating private power in the economic sphere.
Self-described conservative social democrat Sohrab Ahmari comes on to talk to Ben Burgis about Sohrab's new book "Tyranny, Inc.: How Private Power Crushed American Liberty--and What to Do About It." Ben and Sohrab agree about a lot when it comes to what's wrong with our late capitalist hellhole but disagree on both halves of "conservative social democrat"--the "conservative" half and the half about stopping at social democracy instead of aiming at socialism. Matt Christman stops by in-studio for the postgame with patrons.
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