KOL272 | Ernie Hancock Freedom’s Phoenix on Reputation Rights, Defamation, IP

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 272. This is my appearance on the Ernie Hancock “Declare your Independence” show for Aug. 21 (Hour 2).  We discussed defamation law and reputation rights, and some related matters. Grok shownotes: Introduction and Anti-IP Stance The interview begins with host Ernie Hancock introducing Stephan Kinsella, a libertarian patent attorney and author of "Against Intellectual Property," discussing how his practice led him to oppose IP laws (2:00). Kinsella explains IP justifications as utilitarian market failure arguments, noting patents' temporary nature contradicts true property rights, lasting 17 years versus copyrights' 100+ years (3:00). He critiques government-granted monopolies that stifle innovation, sharing how libertarian views shifted over a decade to recognize IP's disadvantages (4:00). The conversation ties into "Letters of Captain Mark," focusing on "pattern monopolies" as intellectual colonization by the state and privateers (4:52). Reputation and Its Relation to IP Transitioning to reputation, Kinsella links it to IP categories like trademarks, which protect brand value built on reputation, and defamation laws, akin to libel (written) and slander (spoken), allowing suits for false harmful statements (7:00-9:00). He argues reputation isn't owned like physical property but exists in others' minds, per Rothbard, rejecting value-based rights (9:00). After a break featuring a Captain Mark letter on IP (10:00), discussion resumes on reputation residing in evaluators' minds, not enforceable via law, as negative campaigning or lies aren't crimes unless violating physical integrity (11:00-12:00). Kinsella notes his anti-IP writings from 1995, still practicing defensively (12:00-13:00). Practical Reputation Systems and Identification Post-break, topics shift to IP lobbying by Hollywood, music, and pharma industries, with treaties like TPP exporting U.S. standards (14:00-16:00). Reputation examples include eBay, Uber ratings as crowdsourced, privately handled without government (18:00-20:00). Hancock explores pirate ship reputation via crew votes on rehiring, emphasizing blockchain, biometrics for unique ID despite aliases (21:00-23:00). Davi shares a name confusion anecdote, stressing verification for bona fides (23:00). Kinsella agrees on private mechanisms, noting guilds or social media for reputation without state intervention (24:00-25:00). Private ID, Privacy, and Libertarian Principles Fundamentals of private ID are debated, akin to historical letters of reference, ruined by defamation threats chilling employer feedback (26:00-28:00). Kinsella views identity as knowledge problem, solvable via insurance requiring DNA or biometrics (28:00-29:00). Facial recognition isn't libertarian violation if private, as no trespass occurs; anonymity costs credibility, like pseudonyms reducing trust (30:00-32:00). Discussion covers nuisance laws not applying to "photons" from unsightly properties, blurring faces as IP distortion (36:00-38:00). Evading IP via torrenting, 3D printing foreseen; blue check marks as private verification (39:00-41:00). Ends with guild models co-opted by state, market for private credentials (41:00-43:00), wrapping at farewell (52:00). https://youtu.be/eIpV7mBfHWc Related links: Rothbard, Knowledge, True and False Block, Defending the Undefendable, ch. 7 "The Slanderer and Libeler" David Kelley vs. Nat Hentoff on Libel, Youtube Kinsella, Reply to Van Dun: Non-Aggression and Title Transfer, Journal of Libertarian Studies, Volume 18, no. 2 (Spring 2004) Initial Youtube transcript as cleaned up by Grok (Grok may have used the wrong names in places, I have not checked yet): [0:00] [Ernie Hancock]: And now live from the studios of Freedom's Phoenix, Ernest Hancock. Believe me when I say we have a difficult time ahead of us. But if we are to be prepared for it, we must first shed our fear of it. I stand here without fear because I remember. I remember that I am here not because of the path that lies before me, but because of the path that lies behind me. I remember that for 100 years we have fought these machines. And after a century of war, I remember that which matters most. We are still here. Let us make them remember we are not afraid. [1:00] [Ernie Hancock]: I'm here and declare your independence with me, Ernie Hancock. Davi Barker sitting in, last day before he has to head off tomorrow. We might do a little bit of show tomorrow. Stephan Kinsella, Donna's getting him on the line now. He had the time wrong, so we'll get him on in just a second here. She's calling him now. Now, Davi and I are going to be talking about reputation with Stephan Kinsella. Now, the one thing, we're done with Captain Kid. I was thinking, the Emancipation, could we make him an airship? Can we make the Emancipation an airship? [Davi Barker]: Oh, yeah. He needs a ship. I'm just wondering, like in the pirate cove where we have the shiny badges and the Freedom's Phoenix airship. You want to put him in there? [Ernie Hancock]: Well, I was thinking that we do a graphic. I don't really want to show his face. It'd be like you're looking at him from behind, like directing something, like pointing a sword at his ship there, and that'd be the graphic or something. [Davi Barker]: Yeah, I guess we got to decide what kind of ship it is. [2:00] [Ernie Hancock]: Yeah, it needs to be an airship. I got to go rescue. I was thinking of flarecraft, but then you can't get in land lovers and go rescue and stuff. So, we'll talk about that. We got Stephan Kinsella. I got you there, Stephan? [Stephan Kinsella]: You got me, Ernie. [Ernie Hancock]: There we go. Okay, we got that taken care of. Yeah. All right. This is what I'm gonna let Davi go ahead and do this because let's go ahead and introduce. I'll introduce Stephan and then we'll get right into the meat because there's a lot to talk about. We got a short time here. Stephan Kinsella is a libertarian writer and registered patent attorney. Mr. Kinsella is a leading anti-intellectual property libertarian theorist, author of "Against Intellectual Property." Now, this is, you know, go ahead and give your bona fides a little. A patent attorney. How did you get to be a patent attorney and be anti-IP? Did you see what was happening? What's up? [3:00] [Stephan Kinsella]: Well, that's exactly how I started practicing patent law, realized, started understanding the system, realized how horrible it is and that it can't be justified. [Ernie Hancock]: Well, what was their justification? You know, nobody will make anything unless they get to say it's theirs forever and always. I mean, what was their rationale? [Stephan Kinsella]: Yeah, that's... there's a bunch of justifications and I had heard them and none of them made sense to me because they just didn't have the type of rigorous argument for them like other property rights do. Because they expire after a certain while. What kind of property right is temporary? Right? Patents last about 17 years and copyright lasts about 100-plus years, but they're temporary. What kind of real property right is temporary? And then the arguments were utilitarian. They were basically evidence-based. They were saying that there's going to be an underproduction of innovation and creative works in a free society because the market will basically fail. [4:00] [Stephan Kinsella]: So we need to come in with the government and give these patent and copyright monopoly privilege grants to people to protect them from competition so it's easier for them to make money so they produce more works. So it's kind of a market failure argument which I never bought that either. [Ernie Hancock]: Yeah, I'm... you know, I think it was like '09, '10, '11 around in there that we first came across you, had you on, and there were a lot of libertarians like, "Hey man, I make this and I do a book and I got..." and "Stephan's wrong." And then as a decade has passed, they're going, "Nah, Stephan might be right." It's becoming more and more common to see the disadvantages of intellectual property. Now what we're focusing on is reputation. There is a letters of Captain Mark. I don't know if you've read any of them. Remember we did a one on intellectual property. We called it pattern monopoly, you know. So that was a good letter. And then now we're looking at reputation as first off, you know, whatever you're saying who owns what and who... you need to know who is, you know, and of course they want it to be the government facial recognition of your permanent record of we know everything and here's your search terms. [5:00] [Ernie Hancock]: But I would like to, as a pirate captain or an employer, you know, the first thing I want to know, I don't care how many 15 billion names that you use. I just want to know who you are. I can call you whatever you want, but I want to know who this person is that I'm hiring or doing business with or what. And we have reputation as being a big thing now in like eBay. You're selling stuff, you're offering things, somebody wants to know your bona fides kind of deal, but I just don't need the government to tell me you're certified for something. I'd rather go and have the people tell me. But when we went through this, this is what we thought of you. And Donna had already had you scheduled for today, a couple days. I'm going, "Woo, serendipitous." I'm going, "This is working out great." Because what Davi did, tell them what you did and how you were looking for this and came across them. [6:00] [Davi Barker]: Yeah, this is kind of like a spooky feature of Google search results. I was looking for, like what we always do with these letters is who are the best writers on this subject, right? Who can we grab like the best material and use that to boil down... steal their IP? How we pirate their IP so that we can produce a better letter? No. So,