In this wide-ranging conversation, we explore the implications of planetary-scale computation with Benjamin Bratton, Director of the Antikythera program at the Berggruen Institute and Professor at UC San Diego. Benjamin describes his interdisciplinary work as appearing like a "platypus" to others—an odd creature combining seemingly incompatible parts that somehow works as a coherent whole.

At the heart of our discussion is Benjamin's framework for understanding how computational technology literally evolves, not metaphorically but through the same mechanisms that drive biological evolution: scaffolding, symbiogenesis, niche construction, and what he calls "allopoiesis"—the process by which organisms transform their external environment to capture more energy and information.

Key themes we explore:

Computational Evolution: How artificial computation has become the primary mechanism for human "allopoietic virtuosity"—our ability to reshape our environment to sustain larger populations
The Embodiment Question: Moving beyond anthropomorphic assumptions about AI embodiment to imagine synthetic intelligence with radically different spatial capabilities and sensory arrangements
Agentic Multiplication: How the explosion of AI agents (potentially reaching hundreds of billions) will fundamentally alter human agency and subjectivity, creating "parasocial relationships with ourselves"
Planetary Intelligence: Understanding Earth itself as having evolved a computational sensory layer through satellites, fiber optic networks, and distributed sensing systems
The Paradox of Intelligence: Whether complex intelligence is ultimately evolutionarily adaptive, given that our computational enlightenment has revealed our own role in potentially destroying the substrate we depend on

Benjamin challenges us to think beyond conventional categories of life, intelligence, and technology, arguing that these distinctions are converging into something more fundamental. As he puts it: "Agency precedes subjectivity"—we've been transforming our world at terraforming scales long before we were conscious of doing so.

The conversation culminates in what Benjamin calls "the paradox of intelligence": What are the preconditions necessary to ensure that complex intelligence remains evolutionarily adaptive rather than self-destructive? As he notes, we became aware of our terraforming-scale agency precisely at the moment we discovered it might be destroying the substrate we depend on. It's a question that becomes increasingly urgent as we stand at the threshold of what could be either a viable planetary civilization or civilizational collapse—what Benjamin sees as requiring us to fundamentally rethink "what planetary scale computation is for."

About Benjamin Bratton: Benjamin Bratton is a philosopher of technology, Professor of Philosophy of Technology and Speculative Design at UC San Diego, and Director of Antikythera, a think tank researching planetary computation at the Berggruen Institute. Beginning in 2024, he also serves as Visiting Faculty Researcher at Google's Paradigms of Intelligence group, conducting fundamental research on the artificialization of intelligence.

His influential book The Stack: On Software and Sovereignty (MIT Press, 2015) develops a comprehensive framework for understanding planetary computation through six modular layers: Earth, Cloud, City, Address, Interface, and User. Other recent works include Accept All Cookies (Berggruen Press), written in conjunction with his co-curation of "The Next Earth: Computation, Crisis, Cosmology" at the 2025 Venice Architecture Biennale, and The Terraforming (Strelka), a manifesto arguing for embracing anthropogenic artificiality to compose a planet sustaining diverse life.

Hvilen - Tor Espen Kristensen - Horneland Bedehus