In this conversation, Amy Hawk and Jonathan Martin discuss disillusionment with evangelicalism, in the context of widespread Trump support. Amy shares her personal spiritual journey, the impact of the quest for political power on faith, and the metaphor of Judas' betrayal as it relates to the church's alignment with Trump. The conversation emphasizes the importance of integrity and truth in faith, and the need for Christians to (in the language of New Testament scripture) "discern the spirits" influencing their beliefs and actions.