The Michael Shermer Show

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Rethinking the Discovery of DNA

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Jan 3, 2026

Guest

Matthew Cobb

Matthew Cobb, a professor of biological sciences and historian of science, discusses the life of Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA's double helix. He reveals how Crick’s career was shaped by luck, chance encounters, and creative debates, rather than being predetermined. Cobb also clarifies misconceptions surrounding Rosalind Franklin's contributions and examines Crick's pivot from molecular biology to consciousness studies. He emphasizes Crick's materialist views on life and the brain, critiquing the proliferation of theories about consciousness.

01:21:54

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insights

INSIGHT

Discovery Is Contingent, Not Inevitable

Scientific discoveries often feel inevitable in retrospect but depend heavily on contingency and luck.
Matthew Cobb argues Watson and Crick only entered DNA work by chance and their rapid 5-week push followed Pauling's mistake.

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ANECDOTE

McClure Poem Sparked Crick's Awe

Francis Crick discovered Michael McClure's Peyote Poem in City Lights and used its phrase "This is the powerful knowledge."
The poem sparked Crick's sense of the awe in discovery and led to a long friendship with McClure.

insights

INSIGHT

Creativity Through Amiable Conflict

Crick created insights through daily arguing and collaborative sparring with colleagues like Sydney Brenner.
Cobb emphasizes 'amiable conflict' as essential to generating and testing creative scientific ideas.

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Was the Double Helix Inevitable?

01:20 • 3min

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Chance and Contingency in Scientific Careers

04:30 • 4min

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Crick's Materialist Ambitions

08:22 • 3min

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Early Influences: Children's Encyclopedia

11:45 • 3min

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Beat Poetry and McClure's Influence

14:30 • 4min

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Collaboration and Amiable Conflict

18:03 • 3min

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The Biological Problem Before 1953

21:18 • 4min

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Rosalind Franklin and King's College Conflict

24:51 • 3min

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The Myth of Photo 51 Clarified

27:26 • 5min

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How Watson and Crick Actually Built Models

32:25 • 5min

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Explaining X‑Ray Crystallography Basics

37:40 • 6min

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Central Dogma and the Genetic Code

43:30 • 6min

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Nobel Prize Effects and Public Correspondence

49:19 • 4min

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Creative Process as Idea Variation

53:41 • 1min

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1971 Breakdown: Overreach and Recovery

54:47 • 2min

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California Life, LSD, and Aesthetic Influences

56:56 • 1min

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A New Focus: Consciousness and Visual Perception

58:22 • 4min

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Neural Correlates and Face Cells Discovery

01:02:44 • 2min

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The Proliferation of Consciousness Theories

01:05:08 • 2min

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Crick and Early AI/Neural Network Debates

01:07:31 • 2min

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The Astonishing Hypothesis and Public Reaction

01:09:27 • 4min

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Crick's Social Views and Limits

01:13:07 • 2min

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Watson's Later Controversies Versus Crick's Restraint

01:14:51 • 4min

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Anecdotes and Closing Reflections

• Mentioned in 2 episodes

Darwinism

Alfred Russel Wallace

• Mentioned in 2 episodes

Crick

A Mind in Motion

Matthew Cobb

For the first time ever, Matthew Cobb presents the full portrait of Francis Crick, a scientist and a man: his triumphs and failings, insights and oversights. Crick set out to find the powerful knowledge—almost miraculously, he did. Defined by an irrepressible, Romantic urge to wonder, Crick sought the basis of life in DNA and the workings of our minds, changing our view of life forever.

#3666

• Mentioned in 11 episodes

The end of science

Facing the Limits of Knowledge in the Twilight of the Scientific Age

John Horgan

In 'The End of Science,' John Horgan discusses the idea that science may be nearing its theoretical limits. He interviews various eminent scholars, including Fred Hoyle, Noam Chomsky, and John Wheeler, to explore topics such as God, superstrings, quarks, consciousness, and the Omega Point. Horgan argues that science is facing significant challenges, including the constraints imposed by special relativity, quantum mechanics, and chaos theory. He also critiques the trend of 'ironic science,' where theoreticians engage in speculative and often untestable theories, potentially reducing science to a status akin to literary criticism. The book presents a contrarian view on the future of scientific discovery and its place in the hierarchy of disciplines.

#4664

• Mentioned in 9 episodes

On Generation

Anonymous Hippocratic author

#29637

• Mentioned in 2 episodes

Crick: A Mind in Motion

From DNA to the Brain

Matthew Cobb

#6494

• Mentioned in 7 episodes

Encyclopedia Britannica

Kathy Broderick

Encyclopedia Britannica is a well-known, long-standing encyclopedia that was originally published in print format. It is known for its comprehensive coverage of various subjects and its authoritative tone. However, with the rise of digital encyclopedias and the internet, its popularity and relevance have diminished. It still exists in various formats, but its impact has been significantly altered by the digital revolution. The encyclopedia's history reflects the evolution of knowledge dissemination and access.

#6755

• Mentioned in 6 episodes

The astonishing hypothesis

Francis Crick

Francis Crick's "The Astonishing Hypothesis" boldly proposes that 'you,' your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. ' This materialistic view challenges traditional notions of the mind and soul, arguing that consciousness is a purely physical phenomenon arising from brain activity. The book explores the biological basis of consciousness, emphasizing the importance of understanding the brain's intricate mechanisms to unravel the mysteries of the mind. Crick's work sparked significant debate and continues to influence contemporary research on consciousness. It remains a landmark contribution to the ongoing quest to understand the relationship between brain and mind.

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Life's Greatest Secret

Matthew Cobb

Life's Greatest Secret by Matthew Cobb is a captivating narrative about the discovery and deciphering of the genetic code. The book explores the global collaboration and competition among scientists from diverse fields, including biology, physics, and chemistry, as they unraveled the secrets of DNA. This breakthrough has had far-reaching consequences for human understanding and well-being, transforming how we perceive life and our place in the natural world.

#1120

• Mentioned in 30 episodes

How Innovation Works

And Why It Flourishes in Freedom

Matt Ridley

In 'How Innovation Works', Matt Ridley argues that innovation is a collective, collaborative, and gradual process that turns inventions into practical and affordable solutions. He emphasizes that innovation is distinct from invention and requires freedom to exchange, experiment, and fail. Ridley draws on numerous historical examples, from steam engines to search engines, to illustrate how innovation speeds up in some sectors and slows down in others. He also highlights the importance of trial and error, persistence, and the role of many individuals rather than solitary geniuses in the innovation process. The book underscores that innovation is crucial for modern prosperity and warns that it can be easily discouraged by political interference.

#3220

• Mentioned in 13 episodes

The Double Helix

James D. Watson

In this autobiography, James Watson recounts the events surrounding the discovery of the structure of DNA. The book provides a detailed and sometimes controversial account of the scientific and personal aspects of the discovery, highlighting the roles of Watson, Francis Crick, Rosalind Franklin, and Maurice Wilkins. It emphasizes the human side of scientific research, including rivalries, personal relationships, and the intersection of science and everyday life. Despite some historical inaccuracies and dramatic embellishments, the book is celebrated for its insight into the sociology of scientific enterprise and its impact on the public's perception of scientists.

#8103

• Mentioned in 5 episodes

The Idea of the Brain

Matthew Cobb

Francis Crick is best known as one of the figures behind the discovery of the double-helix structure of DNA, but the familiar story leaves out as much as it explains. Historian of science Matthew Cobb looks closely at how Crick's life actually unfolded, revealing a career shaped less by inevitability than by luck, conflict, false starts, and a series of highly contingent moments.

The double helix itself may have been waiting to be found, but what followed was anything but predetermined. Crick's influence came from asking uncomfortable questions about what the structure of DNA implied for genetics, evolution, and life itself. Along the way, myths hardened around personalities, credit, and rivalries, especially in the case of Rosalind Franklin, whose role has been both misunderstood and oversimplified.

The conversation also traces Crick's later turn away from molecular biology toward the problem that fascinated him from the beginning: consciousness. From visual perception to the search for neural correlates of experience, his ambition was to push back against mystical explanations and insist that even the most elusive aspects of the mind belonged to the material world.

Matthew Cobb is a professor in the School of Biological Sciences at the University of Manchester. He is the author of numerous works of science and history. His new book is Crick: A Mind in Motion, a biography of the legendary scientist Francis Crick, co-discoverer of the structure of DNA.

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