The Cost of Whistleblowing, and Balancing Privacy with National Security

Jun 11, 2025

John Kiriakou, a former CIA officer and whistleblower known for exposing the agency’s torture program, dives into his profound experiences in intelligence. He discusses the precarious balance between privacy rights and national security. Kiriakou highlights the ethical dilemmas posed by AI in intelligence, the evolution of drone warfare, and the implications of the US Patriot Act on civil liberties. With a gripping narrative, he sheds light on the personal toll of whistleblowing and the ongoing debate surrounding surveillance and individual rights.

Ask episode

AI Snips

Chapters

Books

Transcript

Episode notes

INSIGHT

Privacy vs National Security

Privacy does not need to be sacrificed for national security.
The intelligence community often overreaches because they can get away with it and lack political pushback.

ANECDOTE

Human Intelligence in Business

John used human source intelligence and observation at Deloitte to gather competitive business data.
This hands-on collection led to Deloitte acquiring BearingPoint's clients and assets.

ANECDOTE

Targeted Capture Tactics

To catch Abu Zubaydah, analysts mapped out his contacts on butcher paper to narrow locations.
They raided 13 sites simultaneously and successfully captured him without mass data collection.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Get the app

John Kiriakou, former CIA officer and whistleblower against the agency's torture program, discusses his extensive background in intelligence, the evolving role of technology and AI in intelligence operations, and the balance between privacy and national security. John details his experience with the CIA's torture program post-9/11, and the consequences he's faced for exposing these practices.

Key Takeaways:

How targeted intelligence can succeed without mass surveillance, and how national security doesn't need to mean sacrificing individual privacy
The evolution of drone warfare in military options, and how its crossed moral lines
The dangers posed by AI in intelligence, and the need for ethical considerations in the application of AI
The current state of the US Patriot Act, and the implications of technology in media

Guest Bio: John Kiriakou is a former CIA officer, former senior investigator for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and former counterterrorism consultant for ABC News. He was responsible for the capture in Pakistan in 2002 of Abu Zubaydah, believed to be the third-ranking official in al-Qaeda. In 2007, Kiriakou exposed the CIA's torture program, saying that the CIA tortured prisoners, had become official U.S. government policy, and that this policy had been approved by then-President George W. Bush. He became the sixth whistleblower indicted by the Obama administration under the Espionage Act—a law designed to punish spies—and served 23 months in prison as a result. Kiriakou is the author of eight books, including The Reluctant Spy: My Secret Life in the CIA's War on Terror; Doing Time Like a Spy: How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison; and The Convenient Terrorist: Abu Zubaydah and the Weird Wonderland of America's Secret Wars.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About this Show:

The Brave Technologist is here to shed light on the opportunities and challenges of emerging tech. To make it digestible, less scary, and more approachable for all!

Join us as we embark on a mission to demystify artificial intelligence, challenge the status quo, and empower everyday people to embrace the digital revolution. Whether you're a tech enthusiast, a curious mind, or an industry professional, this podcast invites you to join the conversation and explore the future of AI together.

The Brave Technologist Podcast is hosted by Luke Mulks, VP Business Operations at Brave Software—makers of the privacy-respecting Brave browser and Search engine, and now powering AI everywhere with the Brave Search API.

Music by: Ari Dvorin

Produced by: Sam Laliberte