Know Your Enemy

How Republics End (w/ Mike Duncan) [TEASER]

Jan 28, 2025

Explore the fascinating connections between ancient Rome and modern American society. The conversation dissects how historical misinterpretations shape current immigration debates. Delve into the dangers of using history to support nationalism and xenophobia. The discussion also highlights the relevance of structural issues like income inequality, both in Rome's decline and today's political landscape. Tune in for insights on how the past can inform our understanding of present challenges.

02:36

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Quick takeaways

Contemporary fears surrounding immigration often misinterpret history, overlooking that the Roman Empire flourished through integration rather than exclusion.

Understanding the dynamics of wealth and immigration in the U.S. reveals that embracing diversity can reinforce societal strength and cohesion.

Deep dives

Misinterpretation of Roman History in Modern Context

Invoking the Roman Republic or Empire to justify contemporary fears, particularly regarding immigration, is often misguided. The rhetoric surrounding immigration as an invasion likens today’s situation to ancient conflicts involving the Goths and Huns, which are fundamentally different. Historically, the Roman Empire thrived when it expanded its citizenship to include various peoples, growing stronger through integration rather than isolation. Resistance to diversity and closed-mindedness led to decline, countering the narrative that only 'true Romans' were responsible for the empire's success.

Misinterpretation of Roman History and Modern Immigration Debates

2min

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A stock rhetorical trope on the right is to invoke ancient Rome when talking about American decline—often making direct comparisons between the Goth invaders and contemporary immigrants, obsessing over homosexuality and Rome's fall, and more. If their understanding of history isn't very serious, what should we make of these appeals? And are there any "lessons" we should learn from Roman history?

There's no better time to take up such matters than while Matt is in Rome, and there was no one better for him to talk with about them than Mike Duncan, the prolific and brilliant history podcaster; he currently hosts the Revolutions podcast and, especially relevant for the purposes of this conversation, hosted the History of Rome podcast from 2007-2012, a project that led him to write The Storm Before the Storm: The Beginning of the End of the Roman Republic (2017). Matt and Mike discuss the use and abuse of history, how "norms" do and do not matter, the relationship between imperialist foreign policy and domestic politics, the perils of vast income inequality, then and now, and more.

Sources:

For quotes from conservatives about Roman decline: Reagan, Nixon, Buchanan, Vance (and Pete Navarro & Michael Anton)

Mike Duncan, The Storm Before the Storm(2017)

— Hero of Two Worlds: The Marquis de Lafayette in the Age of Revolution (2021)