Elle Griffin on researching the ideal society, from utopian books to real-world examples

Jan 14, 2026

Elle Griffin, a writer and researcher focused on utopian futures, explores the challenge of envisioning ideal societies. She reflects on the influence of classic utopian literature and discusses innovative concepts like tax autonomy for states, a la carte federations, and the Mondragon model of worker cooperatives. Elle also addresses the governance of AI, advocating for employee control to ensure ethical practices. With her insights, she highlights how we can build a wiser, more equitable future using existing examples and creative thinking.

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INSIGHT

Three Foundational Utopian Visions

Three late-19th/early-20th-century utopias (Bellamy, Morris, Gilman) show divergent visions: high-tech, pastoral, and feminist collectivism.
Combining narrative drive with prescriptive worldbuilding could revive modern utopian fiction.

ADVICE

Grant States Tax Autonomy

Give U.S. states tax autonomy so states can fund policies their citizens actually want.
Model taxation after the EU: states raise revenue locally and remit a portion to a federal layer.

INSIGHT

A La Carte Federalism

Federalism can be modular: multiple overlapping 'EUs' for specific domains instead of one monolithic government.
Countries could join ad hoc federations (e.g., fishing, healthcare) as suits their interests.

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While dystopian fiction dominates our screens and bookshelves, Elle Griffin is busy researching how things might actually go right. She wanted to write a utopian novel and realized she needed a better understanding of what an ideal society could look like.

In our conversation, we discuss how her favorite utopian literature influenced her views on a well-designed society. But we also explore practical ideas on how we could improve our systems:

Tax autonomy: Why giving states and cities the power to collect their own taxes would allow them to fund the specific services their citizens actually want.
A la carte federations: A model where cities and states choose to join specific agreements, like a "fishing EU" or a "healthcare EU," instead of being forced into one large, centralized government that manages every aspect of life.
The Mondragon model: What we can learn from a massive network of worker-owned cooperatives in Spain that provides its own unemployment insurance and university.
Who should control AI: Why giving voting authority to the employees who write the code (rather than investors or nonprofit boards) might be the best way to prevent unethical shortcuts.
Singapore’s land model: How the government acts as a landlord to fund public services, allowing for lower income taxes while still providing universal social support.
Fixing the Internet: How to use personal data and AI to make us wiser, rather than letting algorithms push us toward fast fashion and political radicalization.

Chapters:

Cold open (00:00:00)
Introducing Elle Griffin (00:01:27)
How writing a novel turned into a research project (00:02:27)
Elle’s current work: From print pamphlets to "We Should Own the Economy" (00:04:21)
The setup of Elle’s upcoming utopian novel (00:05:06)
From gothic literature to utopian literature (00:06:30)
Three classic utopian novels and their recurring lessons (00:15:42)
Building a "future Asia" through mythology and technology (00:22:02)
What if US States had the same autonomy as EU countries? (00:23:49)
"A la carte" federalism: moving toward a modular government (00:28:11)
The Mondragon model: a blueprint for worker-owned economies (00:32:54)
Why the smallest government is the best government (00:36:18)
The global monoculture and the rise of micro-cultures (00:44:29)
Who should control AI? The case for employee-led governance (00:53:02)
Fixing the Internet and using AI to make us wise, not just efficient (01:01:06)
Why Victor Hugo’s "Les Misérables" is the ultimate masterpiece (01:06:14)
An existential hope vision for the future (01:08:09)

On the Existential Hope Podcast hosts Allison Duettmann and Beatrice Erkers from the Foresight Institute invite scientists, founders, and philosophers for in-depth conversations on positive, high-tech futures.

Full transcript, listed resources, and more: https://www.existentialhope.com/podcasts

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