80,000 Hours Podcast
#120 – Audrey Tang on what we can learn from Taiwan’s experiments with how to do democracy
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Taiwan's 'Sunflower Student Movement' led to bipartisan consensus for open government.
- Audrey Tang leverages tech for democratic deliberation like using quadratic voting for policy.
- Citizens' juries in Taiwan ensure informed public discussions for healthcare system design.
- Platforms enabling argument proposals and upvoting innovate public service demands collaboration.
- Technological advancements and social movements shape systematic changes in governance methodologies.
Deep dives
Introduction and Update on 80,000 Hours Podcast
The 80,000 Hours podcast returns for a new year with Rob Wiblin, Head of Research at 80,000 Hours, discussing the upcoming episodes and job opportunities.
Audrey Tang's Background and Role in Improving Government
Audrey Tang, a programmer and Taiwanese minister, shares her journey from child prodigy to governmental role focused on tech and democratic deliberation, showcasing projects like using quadratic voting for policy deliberations.
Innovation in Democratic Processes - Polis and Quadratic Voting
Taiwan's innovative approach includes Polis for crowdsourcing opinions and Quadratic Voting for efficient voting, enabling diverse views and finding consensus on complex issues.
Implementation of Participatory Strategies
Using citizens' juries for significant projects like healthcare system design showcases Taiwan's commitment to informed public discussions, contrasting with the limitations of traditional petition-based systems seen in other countries.
Empowering Collaboration through Petition Platforms and Innovation
Utilizing platforms that allow people to propose arguments and counter arguments with upvoting, a collaboration meeting selects top ideas to innovate, creating a more robust space for public service demands. This approach enhances the quality and outcome of discussions beyond traditional textual inputs, benefitting career public servants.
Social Movements Transforming Democratic Processes
Anchored in experiences like the Sunflower student movement, a focus on humor over rumor and transparency aims to combat disinformation while championing participatory democracy. Through collective deliberations and technological advancements, social movements shape systematic changes in governance methodologies, encouraging collaboration and public trust.
Technological Progress and Democratic Ideals
Exploring the potential of brain-computer interfaces and immersive realities, the discussion delves into enhancing empathy and shared experiences. Embracing technologies like Git for decentralized version control and promoting digital democracy via innovative language translations underscore a vision for inclusive and participatory democratic processes.
Crowdsourcing and Decentralized Decision-Making
The podcast discusses a governmental setup where ideas are curated through advice, community voting, and broadcasting. Implementation occurs based on rough consensus and amplification of common values. The process involves decentralized curation across ministries, allowing for the tackling of proposed ideas through interagency collaboration. The focus is on spreading innovations and fostering agreement on shared values.
Open Data and Civic Tech Innovations in Government Services
The discussion centers on the utilization of open data and public infrastructure to empower citizens in creating alternative government services. Projects like the mask mapping initiative demonstrate the fluidity of forking tasks and enabling public feedback. The approach emphasizes rough consensus, running code, and addressing public needs through cooperative civic tech engagement.
In 2014 Taiwan was rocked by mass protests against a proposed trade agreement with China that was about to be agreed without the usual Parliamentary hearings. Students invaded and took over the Parliament. But rather than chant slogans, instead they livestreamed their own parliamentary debate over the trade deal, allowing volunteers to speak both in favour and against.
Instead of polarising the country more, this so-called 'Sunflower Student Movement' ultimately led to a bipartisan consensus that Taiwan should open up its government. That process has gradually made it one of the most communicative and interactive administrations anywhere in the world.
Today's guest — programming prodigy Audrey Tang — initially joined the student protests to help get their streaming infrastructure online. After the students got the official hearings they wanted and went home, she was invited to consult for the government. And when the government later changed hands, she was invited to work in the ministry herself.
Links to learn more, summary and full transcript.
During six years as the country's 'Digital Minister' she has been helping Taiwan increase the flow of information between institutions and civil society and launched original experiments trying to make democracy itself work better.
That includes developing new tools to identify points of consensus between groups that mostly disagree, building social media platforms optimised for discussing policy issues, helping volunteers fight disinformation by making their own memes, and allowing the public to build their own alternatives to government websites whenever they don't like how they currently work.
As part of her ministerial role Audrey also sets aside time each week to help online volunteers working on government-related tech projects get the help they need. How does she decide who to help? She doesn't — that decision is made by members of an online community who upvote the projects they think are best.
According to Audrey, a more collaborative mentality among the country's leaders has helped increase public trust in government, and taught bureaucrats that they can (usually) trust the public in return.
Innovations in Taiwan may offer useful lessons to people who want to improve humanity's ability to make decisions and get along in large groups anywhere in the world. We cover:
• Why it makes sense to treat Facebook as a nightclub
• The value of having no reply button, and of getting more specific when you disagree
• Quadratic voting and funding
• Audrey’s experiences with the Sunflower Student Movement
• Technologies Audrey is most excited about
• Conservative anarchism
• What Audrey’s day-to-day work looks like
• Whether it’s ethical to eat oysters
• And much more
Chapters:
- Rob’s intro (00:00:00)
- The interview begins (00:02:04)
- Global crisis of confidence in government (00:07:06)
- Treating Facebook as a nightclub (00:10:55)
- Polis (00:13:48)
- The value of having no reply button (00:24:33)
- The value of getting more specific (00:26:13)
- Concerns with Polis (00:30:40)
- Quadratic voting and funding (00:42:16)
- Sunflower Student Movement (00:55:24)
- Promising technologies (01:05:44)
- Conservative anarchism (01:22:21)
- What Audrey’s day-to-day work looks like (01:33:54)
- Taiwanese politics (01:46:03)
- G0v (01:50:09)
- Rob’s outro (02:05:09)
Producer: Keiran Harris
Audio mastering: Ben Cordell
Transcriptions: Katy Moore
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