Making Sense with Sam Harris - Subscriber Content

#384 - Stress Testing Our Democracy

Sep 23, 2024

Barton Gellman, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and Senior Advisor at the Brennan Center for Justice, joins to discuss election integrity and the future of democracy. They explore the alarming potential for authoritarianism, the implications of voter ID laws, and the impact of partisan manipulation in election processes. Gellman shares insights from crisis simulations designed to safeguard democracy and examines public unrest post-election. The conversation also touches on the risks surrounding Trumpism and the essential role of civic engagement in preserving democratic values.

01:27:07

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Episode guests

Barton Gellman

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Quick takeaways

The podcast highlights the necessity of understanding threats to American democracy through simulated war games reflecting authoritarian challenges and responses.

A focus on the distinction between laws and norms reveals that democratic safeguards often exist in a fragile gray area, requiring ongoing vigilance.

Concerns around election integrity underscore the contentious nature of voter ID laws and the political implications for marginalized communities in the electoral process.

Deep dives

The Role of Democracy Futures Project

The Democracy Futures Project focuses on understanding the threats faced by American democracy, particularly through tabletop exercises designed to simulate various scenarios. This project involved former officials and leaders from different sectors who participated in war games to explore how an authoritarian president might exert control and how pro-democracy advocates could respond to such actions. Notably, participants role-played both sides, aiming to replicate possible future challenges. This approach revealed not just concerns about potential abuses of power but also emphasized the need for proactive measures to safeguard democracy.

From Observation to Action: Embrace Democratic Challenges

01:18

Maximize Diversity, Minimize Assimilation

00:29

Intro

2min

Safeguarding Democracy: Strategies and Scenarios

21min

Election Integrity and Voter Access

7min

Election Integrity Under Scrutiny

5min

Election Outcomes: Victory and Legitimacy

10min

Political Tensions and Extremism: A Post-Election Analysis

13min

Navigating Political Deceit and Discourse

22min

Erosion of Integrity in Conservative Thought

2min

Defending Democracy in the Face of Authoritarianism

4min

Share this episode: https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/384-stress-testing-our-democracy

Sam Harris speaks with Barton Gellman about election integrity and the safeguarding of American democracy. They discuss the war games he's run to test our response to an authoritarian president, using federal troops against American citizens, the difference between laws and norms, state powers to resist the federal government, voter identification and election integrity, political control over election certifications, the Bush-Gore election, the Electoral Count Reform Act, the prospect of public unrest after the November election, January 6th, George Soros, the "good people on both sides" calumny against Trump, what happens to Trump and Trumpism if Harris wins in November, the presidential debate with Harris, the authoritarian potential of a second Trump term, Project 2025, and other topics.

Barton Gellman is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author. He currently serves as Senior Advisor at the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law. Previously, he was a staff writer at The Atlantic and The Washington Post. He is the author of Dark Mirror: Edward Snowden and the American Surveillance State and Angler: The Cheney Vice Presidency, for which he won the Los Angeles Times Book Prize.

Website: bartongellman.com

Twitter: @bartongellman

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