Sam Harris speaks with Jonathan Rauch and Josh Szeps about the foundations of knowledge, the state of mainstream media, the impact of COVID on information landscape, Trump and Trumpism, immigration issues, and other topics.
The media landscape faces challenges in providing reliable information due to algorithms, misinformation, and an environment regulated by the wrong incentives.
Balancing intellectual diversity and accuracy is a complex challenge for media outlets, requiring a focus on promoting diversity of viewpoint and upholding the values of the constitutional knowledge.
Addressing Trumpism and maintaining a shared reality involves understanding its appeal, debunking misinformation with respect, and navigating the influence of politicians and media while upholding truth and integrity.
Social media is not the sole driver of misinformation; addressing incentives and algorithms that prioritize engagement over truth is crucial to building a robust information ecosystem.
Deep dives
The Challenge of Balancing Truth and Clicks in the Media Landscape
The media landscape is facing challenges in providing reliable information. Algorithms that prioritize clicks and engagement on social media platforms make it easier for misinformation and conspiracy theories to thrive. Legacy media outlets are also struggling to address controversial topics and often face backlash for deviating from the mainstream consensus. The problem is not just conscious liars spreading falsehoods, but also an environment regulated by the wrong incentives. This poses challenges to the constitutional knowledge, the system of norms and institutions that anchors societies to a common version of reality. The solution lies in strengthening the values of the constitutional knowledge, promoting intellectual diversity, and defending the core principles of free thought, discipline of fact, and diversity of viewpoint within institutions. While the challenges are significant, the focus should be on improving the existing structures rather than losing sight of the unrivaled social system for discovering and correcting knowledge.
Navigating the Fringe and Mainstream in Media
The media landscape is grappling with the tension between giving attention to fringe stories and maintaining the credibility and standards of mainstream journalism. Ignoring fringe stories may empower less principled fringe voices, leading to the funneling of untrustworthy ideas and conspiratorial narratives. Balancing the need for intellectual diversity and the responsibility to provide accurate information is a complex challenge. However, the role of institutions, including legacy media, academia, and other reality-based communities, remains vital in defending and promoting reliable and trusted sources of information. The focus should be on fostering diversity of viewpoint, improving diversity within newsrooms, and upholding the values of the constitutional knowledge to strengthen the information ecosystem.
The Challenge of Trumpism and Maintaining a Shared Reality
Addressing Trumpism and maintaining a shared reality requires a nuanced approach. While it is dangerous to castigate a significant portion of society for their beliefs, it remains important to debunk misinformation and falsehoods. The rise of Trumpism is rooted in societal factors like the perceived loss of social status and anti-elite sentiment. Engaging with Trumpism in an effective manner involves understanding the underlying reasons behind its appeal and finding ways to communicate and counter false narratives with tact and respect. The challenge lies in navigating the influence of politicians, cable news, and social media, while upholding the principles of truth and integrity within the constitution of knowledge.
Addressing the Epistemic Challenges of Social Media
While social media presents significant epistemic challenges, it is not the sole driver of misinformation. Politicians, cable news, and other media outlets have historically played a more substantial role in disseminating falsehoods. It is important to remember that social media is not the biggest challenge to truth in the current information landscape. The focus should be on addressing the incentives and algorithms that prioritize engagement instead of truth. Building a robust information ecosystem requires promoting reliable sources, critically evaluating information, and resisting the manipulation tactics employed in politics. Strengthening the constitutional knowledge and its values remains crucial in combating the spread of misinformation.
The Threat of a Second Trump Term
Jonathan Rauch expresses concern that a second term for Donald Trump would lead to the end of liberal democracy in America. Rauch highlights the potential for Trump to openly defy court orders, normalize such behavior, and subvert checks and balances. He outlines a scenario in which Trump appoints loyalists, replaces civil servants, defies court orders, and uses the Justice Department and military to maintain power. Rauch argues that if Trump can successfully defy the Supreme Court, it would fundamentally undermine liberal democracy and the rule of law in America.
The Challenge of Immigration
Rauch discusses the challenges and complexities of immigration policy, noting that it is a difficult problem to solve. He suggests that Biden should focus on creating a defensible southern border and implementing policies that ensure the country has control over who enters. Rauch also highlights the need for comprehensive immigration reform and calls for the Democrats to present a bill that addresses border security while providing a fair and efficient system for legal immigration. He emphasizes the importance of the left being associated with policies that prioritize egalitarianism, equality, and opportunity, in order to counter right-wing anti-immigrant sentiment.
The Role of Christianity in Democracy
Rauch shares a preview of his upcoming book, 'Cross-Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy'. He explores the relationship between Christianity and democracy, arguing that a healthy Christianity is crucial for the functioning of democracy in the United States. Rauch acknowledges that while some may disagree with the shortcomings of Christianity, he believes that democracy requires a moral and ethical foundation typically provided by a healthy religious tradition. He invites further discussion on this topic in the future.
Sam Harris speaks with Jonathan Rauch and Josh Szeps about the foundations of knowledge and the fragmentation of society. They discuss the state of the mainstream media, diversity of viewpoints, the "reality-based" community, what Covid did to our information landscape, the Overton window and the news value of controversial stories, the unique challenge of Trump and Trumpism, the dangers of a second Trump term, the problem of immigration and controlling the southern border of the U.S., and other topics.
Jonathan Rauch, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, is the author of eight books and many articles on public policy, culture, and government. He is a contributing writer for The Atlantic and recipient of the 2005 National Magazine Award, the magazine industry’s equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize. His latest book, published in 2021 by the Brookings Press, is The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth, a spirited and deep-diving account of how to push back against disinformation, canceling, and other new threats to our fact-based epistemic order.
Josh Szeps is an independent journalist. In New York City he was a founding host of HuffPost Live, the multi-award-winning streaming talk network, where he hosted thousands of hours of live TV with the world’s biggest names. In his native Australia, he hosted a national morning television show and had a talk radio show on the public broadcaster, ABC Radio. Josh left legacy media to focus on having bullshit-free conversations about provocative issues on his own platform, Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps, a podcast, live events operation, and YouTube channel.
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