Secrets and Spies Podcast: Espionage | Global Issues | Current Affairs S9 Ep37: Espresso Martini | Signalgate with Shane Harris, Boeing’s F-47, and Remembering Oleg Gordievsky
Apr 5, 2025
01:34:09
The Atlantic’s Shane Harris joins Chris and Matt to unpack Signalgate, the extraordinary national security scandal where top Trump officials coordinated airstrikes over Signal and accidentally included a journalist in the group chat. They discuss the operational fallout, legal implications, and the strain on Five Eyes allies. Then, they dive into the reveal of Boeing’s F-47, the U.S. Air Force’s first sixth-generation fighter and potential final manned combat jet. Finally, Chris remembers legendary KGB defector Oleg Gordievsky and his legacy for British intelligence.
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Articles discussed in today’s episode
"The Trump Administration Accidentally Texted Me Its War Plans" by Jeffrey Goldberg | The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/03/trump-administration-accidentally-texted-me-its-war-plans/682151/
"Here Are the Attack Plans That Trump’s Advisers Shared on Signal" by Jeffrey Goldberg & Shane Harris | The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/03/signal-group-chat-attack-plans-hegseth-goldberg/682176/
"A Rare Moment of Bipartisan Disbelief" by Mark Leibovich | The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/03/trump-cabinet-security-leak/682172/
"Signal Chat Leak Angers U.S. Military Pilots" by Helene Cooper & Eric Schmitt | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/27/us/politics/pilots-signal-leak.html
"Waltz and staff used Gmail for government communications, officials say" by John Hudson | The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/04/01/waltz-national-security-council-signal-gmail/
"Hegseth’s younger brother is serving in a key role as liaison and senior adviser inside the Pentagon" by Tara Copp | Associated Press: https://apnews.com/article/hegseth-brother-signal-dhs-hired-68678a8a653c79a4c6ae31a8bee64836
"Hegseth Brought His Wife to Sensitive Meetings With Foreign Military Officials" by Katherine Long, Max Colchester, Daniel Michaels & Lindsay Wise | The Wall Street Journal: https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/hegseth-brought-his-wife-to-sensitive-meetings-with-foreign-military-officials-c16db0ea
"'Should I Fire Him?’ Inside Trump’s Deliberations Over the Fate of Michael Waltz" by Maggie Haberman & Tyler Page | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/29/us/politics/trump-signal-michael-waltz.html
"Waltz’s team set up at least 20 Signal group chats for crises across the world" by Dasha Burns | Politico: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/02/waltzs-team-set-up-at-least-20-signal-group-chats-for-crises-across-the-world-00266845
"Signal for Secure Comms: Convenience Over Security Without the Record-Keeping" by Howard Altman | The War Zone: https://www.twz.com/news-features/signal-for-secure-comms-convenience-over-security-without-the-record-keeping
"Boeing Wins F-47 Next Generation Air Dominance Fighter Contract" by Thomas Newdick & Tyler Rogoway | The War Zone: https://www.twz.com/air/boeing-wins-air-forces-next-generation-air-dominance-fighter-contract
"F-47 Was Born Out of Secret X-Planes Built by Both Boeing and Lockheed" by Tyler Rogoway | The War Zone: https://www.twz.com/air/f-47-was-born-out-of-secret-x-planes-built-by-both-boeing-and-lockheed
"Oleg Gordievsky, K.G.B. Officer Turned Double Agent, Dies at 86" by Clay Risen | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/26/world/europe/oleg-gordievsky-dead.html
"The Godalming Connection: The Curious Surrey Saga of Fleming, Bond, Putin & the KGB Colonel" by Mark O’Connell: https://markoconnell.co.uk/the-godalming-connection-the-curious-surrey-saga-of-bond-fleming-putin-and-the-kgb-colonel/
"Here Are the Attack Plans That Trump’s Advisers Shared on Signal" by Jeffrey Goldberg & Shane Harris | The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/03/signal-group-chat-attack-plans-hegseth-goldberg/682176/
"A Rare Moment of Bipartisan Disbelief" by Mark Leibovich | The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/03/trump-cabinet-security-leak/682172/
"Signal Chat Leak Angers U.S. Military Pilots" by Helene Cooper & Eric Schmitt | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/27/us/politics/pilots-signal-leak.html
"Waltz and staff used Gmail for government communications, officials say" by John Hudson | The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/04/01/waltz-national-security-council-signal-gmail/
"Hegseth’s younger brother is serving in a key role as liaison and senior adviser inside the Pentagon" by Tara Copp | Associated Press: https://apnews.com/article/hegseth-brother-signal-dhs-hired-68678a8a653c79a4c6ae31a8bee64836
"Hegseth Brought His Wife to Sensitive Meetings With Foreign Military Officials" by Katherine Long, Max Colchester, Daniel Michaels & Lindsay Wise | The Wall Street Journal: https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/hegseth-brought-his-wife-to-sensitive-meetings-with-foreign-military-officials-c16db0ea
"'Should I Fire Him?’ Inside Trump’s Deliberations Over the Fate of Michael Waltz" by Maggie Haberman & Tyler Page | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/29/us/politics/trump-signal-michael-waltz.html
"Waltz’s team set up at least 20 Signal group chats for crises across the world" by Dasha Burns | Politico: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/02/waltzs-team-set-up-at-least-20-signal-group-chats-for-crises-across-the-world-00266845
"Signal for Secure Comms: Convenience Over Security Without the Record-Keeping" by Howard Altman | The War Zone: https://www.twz.com/news-features/signal-for-secure-comms-convenience-over-security-without-the-record-keeping
"Boeing Wins F-47 Next Generation Air Dominance Fighter Contract" by Thomas Newdick & Tyler Rogoway | The War Zone: https://www.twz.com/air/boeing-wins-air-forces-next-generation-air-dominance-fighter-contract
"F-47 Was Born Out of Secret X-Planes Built by Both Boeing and Lockheed" by Tyler Rogoway | The War Zone: https://www.twz.com/air/f-47-was-born-out-of-secret-x-planes-built-by-both-boeing-and-lockheed
"Oleg Gordievsky, K.G.B. Officer Turned Double Agent, Dies at 86" by Clay Risen | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/26/world/europe/oleg-gordievsky-dead.html
"The Godalming Connection: The Curious Surrey Saga of Fleming, Bond, Putin & the KGB Colonel" by Mark O’Connell: https://markoconnell.co.uk/the-godalming-connection-the-curious-surrey-saga-of-bond-fleming-putin-and-the-kgb-colonel/
More about Shane Harris
Read Shane’s work at The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/shane-harris/
Follow Shane on Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/shaneharris.bsky.social
Follow Shane on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/shaneharris
Follow Shane on Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/shaneharris.bsky.social
Follow Shane on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/shaneharris
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Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode unpacks global events through the lens of intelligence and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and analysts.
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Follow Chris and Matt on Bluesky:
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Secrets and Spies is produced by F & P LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird
U.S. Navy photos by PO2 Darren Cordoviz & PO2 Lindsey Kish
Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode unpacks global events through the lens of intelligence and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and analysts.