The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

chevron_right

197. Apocalypse Never? | Michael Shellenberger

Oct 18, 2021

Guest

Michael Shellenberger

Michael Shellenberger, an environmentalist and author, challenges mainstream apocalyptic narratives around climate change. He discusses the harmful effects of fear-based environmentalism on mental health, advocating for a hopeful, action-oriented approach. The conversation touches on the benefits of nuclear energy and critiques alarmism in climate activism, urging honest discourse on environmental issues. They also reflect on the intersection of personal responsibility and societal challenges, making a compelling case for a balanced perspective on progress and sustainability.

02:02:19

forum

Ask episode

web_stories

AI Snips

view_agenda

Chapters

menu_book

Books

auto_awesome

Transcript

info_circle

Episode notes

insights

INSIGHT

Environmentalism and Depression

Apocalyptic environmental narratives share the same structure as depressive thinking.
Both focus on negative self-perception, a negative world view, and a bleak future outlook.

question_answer

ANECDOTE

Extinction Rebellion's Approach

Extinction Rebellion, a UK activist group, embodies the potential dangers of climate catastrophism.
They reject practical solutions like nuclear energy while demanding drastic, often ineffective, measures.

insights

INSIGHT

Environmentalism as Religion

The "death of God" creates a nihilistic vacuum, leading people to seek meaning elsewhere.
Apocalyptic environmentalism offers a new religion, complete with guilt, original sin, and end-times prophecies.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Hope Amidst Despair: Rethinking Environmentalism

01:59 • 18min

chevron_right

Exploring Nihilism and the Mind: From Harmful Thoughts to Health Solutions

20:21 • 5min

chevron_right

Critique of Alarmism in Climate Activism

25:44 • 2min

chevron_right

Navigating Values in a Godless World

27:20 • 9min

chevron_right

Exploring Mortality and Psychological Perspectives

36:42 • 4min

chevron_right

Navigating Death, Consumption, and Spirituality

40:49 • 11min

chevron_right

Reevaluating Sweatshops and Environmental Progress

52:11 • 19min

chevron_right

War, Apocalypse, and Human Resilience

01:11:22 • 22min

chevron_right

The Intersection of Free Markets and Personal Responsibility

01:33:14 • 2min

chevron_right

Examining Urban Challenges: Drug Crisis and Compassionate Response

01:35:22 • 4min

chevron_right

The Journey from Victimhood to Heroism

01:38:55 • 11min

chevron_right

Maternal Instincts and Societal Complexities

01:50:00 • 15min

chevron_right

San Fransicko

Why Progressives Ruin Cities

Michael Shellenberger

In 'San Fransicko,' Michael Shellenberger argues that progressive policies have exacerbated problems like homelessness, drug addiction, and crime in cities like San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, and Portland. Despite advocating for decriminalization of drugs and affordable housing, Shellenberger discovered that these policies have enabled rather than solved these issues. He contends that the underlying problem is an ideology that designates certain individuals as victims entitled to destructive behaviors, undermining the values necessary for functioning cities and civilization. The book compares the approaches of West Coast cities with those of other cities like New York and Washington D.C. , highlighting more effective strategies for addressing homelessness and addiction.

The Denial of Death

Ernest Becker

In 'The Denial of Death', Ernest Becker discusses the psychological and philosophical implications of how people and cultures react to the concept of death. He argues that human civilization is a defense mechanism against the knowledge of our mortality, and that this denial is a necessary component of functioning in the world. Becker's work challenges traditional Freudian thought by positing that the primary repression is not sexuality, but rather the awareness of death. He also explores how this fear of death leads to the creation of 'hero systems' and symbols that help individuals transcend their mortality, and how this can result in violence and conflict when different immortality projects clash.

Man's Search for Meaning

Viktor Frankl

The book is divided into two parts. The first part recounts Frankl's harrowing experiences as a prisoner in Nazi concentration camps, including Auschwitz, between 1942 and 1945. He describes the inhumane conditions and the psychological and emotional struggles of the prisoners. The second part introduces Frankl's theory of logotherapy, which posits that the primary human drive is the search for meaning, rather than pleasure. Frankl argues that meaning can be found through three main avenues: work (doing something significant), love (caring for another), and suffering (finding meaning in one's own suffering). The book emphasizes the importance of finding purpose and meaning in life, even in the most adverse conditions, as a key factor in survival and personal growth.

The great mother

An Analysis of the Archetype

Erich Neumann

In this book, Erich Neumann delves into the archetype of the Great Mother, tracing its evolution from prehistoric times to modern society. He analyzes the feminine archetype through various cultural and historical representations, such as goddesses, monsters, and natural symbols. Neumann's work highlights the dialectical relationship between growing consciousness and the unconscious, symbolized by the child and the Great Mother, respectively. The book is considered a profound and enduring contribution to archetypal studies and Jungian psychology.

The Origins and History of Consciousness

Erich Neumann

In this influential book, Erich Neumann outlines the archetypal stages in the development of consciousness, using depth psychology and analytical psychology. He discusses how individual consciousness undergoes the same stages of development as human consciousness as a whole, tracing these stages through various myths and archetypes such as the Great Mother, the separation of the World Parents, the Birth of the Hero, and the Slaying of the Dragon. The book emphasizes the role of the collective unconscious and the evolving ego consciousness, and it includes a foreword by C.G. Jung. Neumann's work connects these psychological concepts to therapy, aiming to help individuals and society by exploring the deep parts of the mind and understanding myths and their impact on human development.

Apocalypse Never

Michael Shellenberger

Being in time

David John Farmer

Martin Heidegger's Being and Time is a seminal work of 20th-century philosophy. It challenges traditional metaphysical assumptions and introduces concepts like 'being-in-the-world' and 'Dasein' to explore the nature of human existence. The book is known for its dense and challenging prose, requiring careful and repeated readings. Heidegger's work has had a profound influence on continental philosophy and continues to be studied and debated today. Its exploration of fundamental ontological questions remains relevant to contemporary philosophical discussions.

Breaking Through

Isher Judge Ahluwalia

This episode was recorded on October 4th, 2021

Dr. Jordan Peterson and Michael Shellenberger exchange ideas about the Apocalyptic Environmentalism that is getting mainstream coverage. Michael sheds light on the true impact of climate change and the theory of nuclear peace. As they dive into Michael’s new book, “San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities'', Dr. Peterson shares his view on the book and what he enjoyed about it.

Michael Shellenberger is the best-selling author of Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All, a Time Magazine “Hero of the Environment,” and “Green Book Award” winner. He is also the Founder and President of Environmental Progress, an independent and nonprofit research organization based in Berkeley, California. He advises policymakers around the world and has writings and TED talks viewed over 5 million times.

Read Michael’s books: https://shorturl.at/eijoL

Check out Environmental Progress: https://environmentalprogress.org

Follow Michael on Twitter: https://shorturl.at/amLO2

————————————

Shownotes

————————————

[00:00] Jordan introduces this week's guest, Michael Shellenberger.

[01:07] The meaning of “Time” magazine “hero of environment” and “green book award winner”.

[01:33] Michael’s thoughts on the impact of environmentalism on mental health.

[02:59] Who Michael Shellenberger is and his book "Apocalypse Never."

[05:49] Cognitive Behavior Therapy.

[07:44] Dr. Peterson’s view towards dealing with problems.

[08:44] Being a good person according to Dr. Peterson.

[11:59] The religious movement of Apocalyptic Environmentalism.

[13:19] Dr. Peterson and values.

[21:17] Death of God and the highest ideal.

[24:02] Nature and the positive feminine.

[25:04] 'The Great Mother' by Erich Neumann.

[27:33] The relationship between plastic waste and OCD.

[29:57] Vegetarianism & the ritual of saying grace.

[31:04] Why Dr. Jordan thinks Becker's book is flawed.

[32:09] Erich Neumann 'The Origins and History of Consciousness.'

[36:31] Mass Extinction.

[37:49] Land production according to Michael Shellenberger.

[38:34] Temple Grandin.

[43:58] How sweatshops save the planet.

[45:23] Dr. Peterson shares his perspective on subsistence farming.

[48:35] The smart environmentalists.

[52:07] The food surpluses and population declines.

[53:12] The reduction of carbon emissions.

[55:27] Dr. Peterson comments on being at a subsistence level.

[56:11] Michael’s connection between benevolence and energy transformation.

[57:12] Dr. Peterson comments on the relationship between work and energy.

[57:40] Depression and the environment.

[59:53] Displacement and nuclear power plants.

[01:02:16] The theory of nuclear weapons & peace.

[01:06:19] The unwarranted apocalypse.

[01:08:21] Shellenberger comments on climate change.

[01:09:48] Dealing with the runaway positive feedback loop.

[01:12:58] Dr. Peterson and “safe routes”.

[01:14:10] Dr. Peterson’s perspective towards apocalypses.

[01:15:15] Dealing with crisis and resilience to different kinds of catastrophes.

[01:17:09] Prosperity and eradicating poverty.

[01:20:59] The environmental problems we should address.

[01:24:47] The problem with the free market obsession.

[01:27:42] San FranSicko - Shellenberger’s book.

[01:32:25] Pathological altruism.

[01:34:08] Dr. Peterson’s thoughts on excessive compassion.

[01:37:43] The hero's journey.

[01:38:46] The most reliable cure for alcoholism according to Dr. Peterson.

[01:40:04] Victor Frankl, blaming the victim, and the positive maternal.

[01:45:04] How people in Amsterdam and America deal with addiction.

// SPONSORS //

Interested in sponsoring my audio podcast? Reach out to my advertising team here: sponsorships@jordanbpeterson.com

Home Top podcasts Popular guests