AI-powered
podcast player
Listen to all your favourite podcasts with AI-powered features
The Seen and the Unseen - hosted by Amit Varma
Ep 374: Making Policy Fun with Khyati Pathak and Friends
Mar 25, 2024
Policy and comics merge in a fun discussion with Khyati, Anupam, and Pranay, exploring civic education through their book 'We the Citizens'. They emphasize relatability in teaching economics, the impact of skilled teachers, and the evolution from personal comics to public policy. The conversation navigates political polarization, government intervention, and policy evaluation while advocating for clear writing to enhance communication skills.
04:06:25
Episode guests
AI Summary
Highlights
AI Chapters
Episode notes
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- The book 'We the Citizens' emerged from the intersection of policy discussions and comics, transforming complex ideas into accessible narratives.
- The project's aim is to effect societal change by influencing public understanding of policies, emphasizing the importance of persistence and long-term impact.
- Visual storytelling evolution stemmed from exploring diverse art forms, leading to a unique artistic voice that balances detailed narratives with simplicity.
- Artistic growth involved blending personal experiences with engaging narratives through comics and illustrations, embracing different mediums for impactful storytelling.
- Continuous artistic development emphasized receptivity to feedback and adaptability, showcasing a commitment to enhancing visual storytelling through meaningful narratives.
- Translating complex concepts between languages and maintaining precision is vital, with a focus on creating a shared vocabulary across diverse linguistic backgrounds.
Deep dives
Evolution of the Book Idea
The idea for the book began with Kathi sending a comic summarizing the learnings of a course to Pranay and Anupam. Initially, the concept was not concrete about turning it into a book. However, positive feedback and interest led to the development of pilot chapters, which eventually solidified the idea of creating a book.
Purpose and Drive for Change
The purpose that drives those involved in the project, including Pranay and Anupam, is linked to effecting change in the ecosystem and society at large. They focus on addressing the demand end of the political marketplace by making complex ideas accessible to the common person. The motivation stems from a desire to influence the broader public understanding of concepts that can shape policies and create a positive impact.
Long-Term Vision and Complex Change
The overarching vision involves a long-term commitment to influencing societal change, acknowledging that impactful outcomes often take time and persistence. The team operates with an understanding of the complexity inherent in policy change, challenging established norms and seeking to broaden perspectives to shift the policy landscape over time.
Evolution as an Artist and Finding Voice
As an illustrator, the evolution came from experimenting with different art forms and styles to find a unique voice. Initially drawn to writing, the transition to illustrating brought about a new perspective on storytelling through comics and illustrations. Exploration of various artists' works, such as long-form comics by Sumit Kumar and Varun Grover's 'Courage Y', inspired a deeper dive into visual storytelling and authentic content creation. The process of trying different styles and formats gradually led to defining a personal artistic voice that balances detailed storytelling without clutter.
Approach to Art Forms and Storytelling
The approach to art forms and storytelling involved a blend of introspection and experimentation. Reflecting on influences from other artists, including long-form comics and visual essays, led to a blend of personal experiences and engaging narratives. Embracing different mediums like comics, illustrations, and visual essays, the journey as an artist evolved towards a nuanced understanding of what to include in the frame and how to convey complex ideas with simplicity. Balancing between one panel comics and longer narratives, the focus shifted towards impactful storytelling and resonating with diverse audiences.
Balancing Artistic Expression and Feedback Loop
The artistic process intertwined creativity with a receptive attitude towards feedback and evolution. Striving for a balance between creative expression and responsiveness to feedback, the evolution as an artist emphasized the importance of detachment and adaptability in refining one's craft. Showcasing a blend of personal experiences and artistic interpretation, the approach to visual storytelling integrated thoughtful details and meaningful narratives. Receptive to constructive criticism and guidance, the commitment to enhancing storytelling through art emerged as a continuous learning journey.
Challenges in Navigating Multilingual Thought Universes
The podcast highlights the challenges of translating concepts between different languages and the impact of language on shaping thought processes. The speakers discuss the importance of maintaining precision in language, especially when dealing with concepts that may have different interpretations. They emphasize the need to balance the use of jargon and metaphors, considering the varying levels of understanding among audiences. Additionally, they explore the complexities of language and how it influences one's perspective and thinking patterns.
Translating Concepts in Different Languages for Clarity and Understanding
The conversation delves into the significance of translating complex ideas from English to Indian languages, considering the rich and diverse thought universes unique to each language. The speakers acknowledge the value of creating a vocabulary that accurately conveys concepts across various languages to enhance comprehension and enable broader access to knowledge. They share insights on the challenges and opportunities presented by multilingualism for thought development and cultural preservation.
Exploring Language's Influence on Cultural Context and Daily Practices
The discussion touches upon how language shapes cultural context, daily practices, and even the understanding of rituals and traditions. The speakers reflect on the intricacies of language, such as unique words for specific experiences or activities that may not have direct translations in other languages. They emphasize the importance of preserving linguistic nuances to maintain the essence of cultural heritage and convey ideas effectively within distinct language frameworks.
Challenging Diaglossia by Exploring Language Usage in Different Contexts
The podcast episode delves into the concept of diaglossia, highlighting how individuals use different languages based on specific contexts. Unlike bilingual individuals who can express the same idea in different languages, diaglossic speakers switch languages depending on the subject matter. Overcoming diaglossia involves immersing oneself in situations that demand explaining concepts in diverse languages, fostering a deeper understanding of language nuances and expanding communication abilities.
Importance of Unlearning Deeply Held Beliefs in Public Policy Education
The podcast underlines the significance of unlearning entrenched beliefs in public policy education. Students are encouraged to challenge preconceived notions and adopt foundational concepts that facilitate critical thinking. The necessity to unlearn is exemplified by discussions on misconceptions about issues like water pricing and population concerns in India. By questioning deeply held beliefs and exploring diverse perspectives, individuals can develop a more comprehensive understanding of complex policy issues and promote analytical thinking.
Insights on Different Perspectives and Changing Views
Exploring how exposure to different cultures like the example of Singapore's MRP policy led to a realization that policies vary with context, illustrating the importance of understanding diverse perspectives. Additionally, reflecting on personal changes in views on issues like MSP, religion, and the environment, emphasizing the value of evolving perspectives over time.
Alternative Sources of Knowledge and Diverse Recommendations
Challenging the notion that reading books is the sole path to knowledge by advocating for varied sources like podcasts and papers for insights. Recommendations include seminal works like 'Use of Knowledge in Society,' writings of Milton Friedman, and unconventional books like 'The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye,' highlighting a diverse approach to gaining knowledge.
3.
Exploring Learning Methods and the Importance of Relatability in Teaching Economics
23min
5.
From Personal Comics to Public Policy: The Evolution of a Collaborative Project
16min
Economics and public policy touch all our lives, and have humanitarian consequences. But isn't it damn boring? No! Khyati Pathak, Anupam Manur and Pranay Kotasthane join Amit Varma in episode 374 of The Seen and the Unseen to talk policy and comics -- and how they came together in their book, We the Citizens. (FOR FULL LINKED SHOW NOTES, GO TO SEENUNSEEN.IN.) I strongly recommend that you check out the courses and the output of the Takshashila Institution. What they do is nothing less than a great public service to India. Also check out: 1. Khyati Pathak on Twitter, Instagram, Substack and her own website of comics. 2. Anupam Manur on Twitter, LinkedIn and the Takshashila Institution. 3. Pranay Kotasthane on Twitter, LinkedIn, Amazon and the Takshashila Institution. 4. We, The Citizens: Strengthening the Indian Republic -- Khyati Pathak, Anupam Manur and Pranay Kotasthane. 5. Puliyabaazi — Pranay Kotasthane and Khyati Pathak's podcast (co-hosted with Saurabh Chandra). 6. Anticipating the Unintended — Pranay Kotasthane and Raghu Sanjaylal Jaitley’s newsletter. 7. Missing In Action: Why You Should Care About Public Policy — Pranay Kotasthane and Raghu S Jaitley. 8. The Long Road From Neeyat to Neeti — Episode 313 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Pranay Kotasthane & Raghu S Jaitley). 9. Pranay Kotasthane Talks Public Policy — Episode 233 of The Seen and the Unseen. 10. The Semiconductor Wars -- Episode 358 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Pranay Kotasthane & Abhiram Manchi). 11. Older episodes of The Seen and the Unseen w Pranay Kotasthane: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. 12. Protectionism -- Episode 59 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Anupam Manur). 13. The Incredible Curiosities of Mukulika Banerjee — Episode 276 of The Seen and the Unseen. 14. Toan Truong's Twitter thread on learning how to learn. 15. Harvard’s CS50 course. 16. A Bushel is equal to "2 kennings, 4 pecks, or 8 dry gallons." 17. A trade deficit with a babysitter (2005) — Tim Harford. 18. 1984 -- George Orwell. 19. The Double ‘Thank-You’ Moment — John Stossel. 20. There’s no speed limit -- Derek Sivers. 21. A Deep Dive Into the Indian Military -- Episode 31 of Everything is Everything. 22. A Deep Dive Into Ukraine vs Russia — Episode 335 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ajay Shah). 23. The State of the Ukraine War -- Episode 14 of Everything is Everything. 24. The Economics of Arms -- Keith Hartley. 25. The Indian Armed Forces — Episode 175 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Lt Gen Prakash Menon). 26. India in the Nuclear Age — Episode 80 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Lt Gen Prakash Menon). 27. Guns vs Butter. 28. This Passing Moment -- Amit Varma on Opportunity Cost. 29. The Use of Knowledge in Society — Friedrich Hayek. 30. Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration -- Bryan Caplan and Zach Weinersmith. 31. What's Wrong With Indian Agriculture? -- Episode 18 of Everything is Everything. 32. Episodes of The Seen and the Unseen on agriculture (in reverse chronological order): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 33. The Tragedy of Our Farm Bills -- Episode 211 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ajay Shah). 34. India’s Massive Pensions Crisis — Episode 347 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ajay Shah & Renuka Sane). 35. The Reformers -- Episode 28 of Everything is Everything. 36. The Overton Window. 37. Yugank Goyal Is out of the Box -- Episode 370 of The Seen and the Unseen. 38. Deepak VS and the Man Behind His Face -- Episode 373 of The Seen and the Unseen. 39. Radical Markets -- Eric Posner and E Glen Weyl. 40. Karejwa -- Varun Grover, Ankit Kapoor and Sumit Kumar. 41. Parsai -- Mansi Sharma and Sumit Kumar. 42. So Below -- Sam Wallman. 43. Manjula Padmanabhan is a Forever Outsider -- Episode 372 of The Seen and the Unseen. 44. Irfan, the Keeper of Memories -- Episode 368 of The Seen and the Unseen. 45. The Life and Times of Ira Pande -- Episode 369 of The Seen and the Unseen. 46. Understanding the State -- Episode 25 of Everything is Everything. 47. When Should the State Act? -- Episode 26 of Everything is Everything. 48. Public Choice Theory Explains SO MUCH -- Episode 33 of The Seen and the Unseen. 49. Swapna Liddle and the Many Shades of Delhi -- Episode 367 of The Seen and the Unseen. 50. Radically Networked Societies — Episode 158 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Pranay Kotasthane). 51. भारतीय भाषाओँ में हमारे अतीत के सुराग़ -- Episode 106 of Puliyabaazi (w Peggy Mohan). 52. Understanding India Through Its Languages — Episode 232 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Peggy Mohan). 53. Wanderers, Kings, Merchants: The Story of India through Its Languages — Peggy Mohan. 54. We, The Citizens: A Review -- Ashish Kulkarni. 55. The Four Quadrants of Conformism — Paul Graham. 56. Our Population Is Our Greatest Asset -- Episode 20 of Everything is Everything. 57. Population Is Not a Problem, but Our Greatest Strength -- Amit Varma. 58. Anupam Manur's piece on water pricing in Bangalore. 59. The Great Redistribution (2015) — Amit Varma. 60. Bootleggers and Baptists: The Education of a Regulatory Economist — Bruce Yandle. 61. ये लिबरल आख़िर है कौन? — Episode 37 of Puliyabaazi (w Amit Varma). 62. We the Living -- Ayn Rand. 63. so you want to be a writer? -- Charles Bukowski. 64. Vijay Kelkar's legendary CD Deshmukh Lecture. 65. In Service of the Republic: The Art and Science of Economic Policy — Vijay Kelkar and Ajay Shah. 66. Why Does the Indian State Both Fail and Succeed? -- Devesh Kapur. 67. Milton Friedman on India. 68. The Dalit Emancipation Manifesto of 1951 — Babasaheb Ambedkar. 69. How to Build an Economic Model in Your Spare Time -- Hal Varian. 70. Caste, Capitalism and Chandra Bhan Prasad — Episode 296 of The Seen and the Unseen. 71. We Want More FSI -- Episode 11 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Alex Tabarrok). 72. Defending the Undefendable -- Walter Block. 73. The Use of Knowledge in Society — Friedrich Hayek. 74. Free To Choose -- Milton Friedman and Rose Friedman. 75. Capitalism and Freedom -- Milton Friedman. 76. Milton Friedman Speaks -- Collected speeches in a YouTube playlist. 77. The Economist. 78. Free Trade under Fire -- Douglas Irwin. 79. The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye -- Sonny Liew. Amit’s newsletter is explosively active again. Subscribe right away to The India Uncut Newsletter! It’s free! Amit Varma and Ajay Shah have launched a new video podcast. Check out Everything is Everything on YouTube. Check out Amit’s online course, The Art of Clear Writing. Episode art: ‘The Artist’ by Simahina.
Get the Snipd
podcast app
Unlock the knowledge in podcasts with the podcast player of the future.
AI-powered
Discover
highlights
Listen to the best highlights from the podcasts you love and dive into the full episode
Save any
moment
Hear something you like? Tap your headphones to save it with AI-generated key takeaways
Share
& Export
Send highlights to Twitter, WhatsApp or export them to Notion, Readwise & more
AI-powered
podcast player
Listen to all your favourite podcasts with AI-powered features
Discover
highlights
Listen to the best highlights from the podcasts you love and dive into the full episode