We are joined by Roman Jouravlev, the Axelos programme manager for ITIL 4 and the conscience and brilliant mind of ITSM. The discussion moves from various current flavours of service management, to identifying these as being part of the same thing. We shouldn’t need ITSM and ESM – all organisations deliver and consume services to and within each other. This moves imperceptibly on to a fascinating and fundamental discussion on long term sustainability.! We also learn a number of new terms and about Roman’s move to London for Axelos. There’s also a surprise in his choice of drink.