The Way Out Is In Benefitting from a Spiritual Practice: In Conversation with Tom Rivett-Carnac (Episode #37)
Welcome to episode 37 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.
This time, the presenters, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and journalist Jo Confino, are joined in conversation by Tom Rivett-Carnac. Together, they discuss the power that deep spiritual grounding has to support change in the world, as well as how to bring presence and insight into our daily lives and the global challenges we face; how to cultivate inner peace; and taking steps to make mindfulness a tool for individual and collective awakening.
Tom Rivett-Carnac is a political strategist, author, and podcaster who has spent more than 20 years working to address the climate and ecological crises. He is also a Founding Partner of Global Optimism, co-presenter of the well-known climate podcast Outrage + Optimism, and co-author of bestselling book The Future We Choose.
Tom also talks about his early-life experience as a Buddhist monk; spiritual development; coming together without egoic attachment to find collective solutions; and integrating practice and activism.
Brother Phap Huu talks about practices for collective awakening and how to not lose track of mindfulness in society’s busyness; training for the hard times; communities as support for the practice; touching enlightenment in daily life; finding peace in silence; being the change we want to see; and how Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings can serve people in times of crises.
Jo delves into the power of presence; letting go of views; and why ‘showing up fully at work’ may not work.
The episode ends with a short meditation guided by Brother Phap Huu.
Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/
And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/
With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/
List of resources
Tom Rivett-Carnac
https://www.globaloptimism.com/tom-rivett-carnac
The Future We Choose: The Stubborn Optimist’s Guide to the Climate Crisis
https://www.globaloptimism.com/the-future-we-choose
S.N. Goenka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._N._Goenka
Sagaing, Myanmar/Burma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagaing
Christiana Figueres
http://christianafigueres.com/#/
The Way Out Is In: ‘The Three Doors of Liberation’ (episode 18)
https://plumvillage.org/podcast/the-three-doors-of-liberation-episode-18/
The Way Out Is In: ‘Free from Views in a Polarized World’ (episode 36)
https://plumvillage.org/podcast/free-from-views-in-a-polarized-world-episode-36/
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD
Ajahn Chah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Chah
Quotes
“I’ve done things in the last two days that I haven’t done for 20 years. Like just sit on a log and watch the wind in the poplars for 15 minutes. And how deeply satisfying that present moment can be. I feel very grateful to find that again. And the strange thing, of course, is it was always there. I was allowing myself to develop this sense of melancholy and regret, like it was this difficult thing that I’d achieved and forgotten. And then, coming back here, it actually seemed simple.”
“Spirituality, for us, is the refuge within that needs to always be cultivated.”
“When we speak about coming back to oneself in Buddhism, it’s not about taking care of the ego but finding all of the beautiful conditions that we want to cultivate outside, inside of us. Then we will have the ingredients to offer to the world, to the workplace, to our families, to our loved ones.”
“The necessary step that we all need to take is moving mindfulness away from being something that happens in isolation from the world, to something that happens while we are in the world and that the world can become a tool for.”
“The only way in which we have a sense of collective purpose is in the unity of how we direct our attention towards the present moment, towards the world that we’re living in, that we’re all working to protect, but which the busyness of that activity is preventing us from seeing.”
“I feel like I’ve spent half my adult life focusing primarily on presence and spiritual development, and the other half on raising a family, the problems of the world, and climate change – and now I feel like the interesting work is at the intersection of those two. I don’t feel like we can really advance unless we’re able to bring those two different elements together in ourselves, in our work, because we’re not really doing it at the moment.”
“The systems and the institutions that we have relied upon to see us through this great crisis don’t look capable of delivering what we want. So where’s the edge that we need to dwell with in order to move forward? I believe it’s the integration of how we’re living our lives, how we’re bringing presence and insight to our moment, to the moments of our life and the great challenges of our generation.”
“What we need is a collective awakening. Our teacher has said, ‘One Buddha is not enough anymore for our times, for our suffering, for the situations that we are facing. We need multitudes of bodhisattvas, of those who are selfless, those who know how to see the benefit of others as their own benefits, the well-being of the planet as their well-being.’”
“Even though what is being shared is so painful, instead of drowning and being overwhelmed by the sorrow, my breathing becomes my foundation. I’m still present with the suffering, but I can guide the suffering. And this inner work, we believe [it] is so necessary for everyone today, because what we are facing will bring up a lot of emotions and feelings and even a sense of despair. And we all need a place of refuge and we need communities. I truly believe that community is the way forward; we cannot do it by ourselves. There’s no superman that can change the situation. We really need a collective movement, a collective awakening, a collective practice.”
“It would be very easy to say, ‘I’ve spent ten years following my spiritual pursuits and 15 years working in the climate movement. Now I want to integrate them, I need to go away and think up a plan and come up with an ideology and a view that is one of integration.’ But all we will have done is add to the number of ideologies and views out there. So it has to be about creating an intentionality and a presence and a space from which something can emerge. And that process can probably neither be hurried nor slowed down, but [it also] can’t be born unless it has space to breathe.”
“The first thing that I feel will be important for me in returning to my life is the acceptance that normal life is different, and that I can’t expect perfection from myself. That in itself creates a relaxation. The best that we can do is bring more presence and more intentionality, and move in a direction that has that infused in it, and be able to let go of the things that distract us, the ideas that trap us – but that’s going to be a process.”