This week, we have our first mother daughter guests on the show. I’m honoured to be joined by Mungi Ngomane, human rights activist, the granddaughter of Archbishop Desmond Tutu and author of Everyday Ubuntu - the book inspired by the African philosophy and way of life that counts Meghan Markle and Prince Harry among its fans.

And with Mungi today is….her mum! Reverend Nontombi Naomi Tutu is a priest and social justice activist.  Growing up ‘the daughter of Archbishop Desmond Tutu’ offered her opportunities as well as challenges. Not least, the call to ministry – something she resisted until she was finally ordained in her 50s.  Now works tirelessly both in her own community and for the advancement of women and girls globally.

Both women are shining examples of what can happen when we live by the principles of Ubuntu – the South African philosophy of ‘I am because you are’.

Here, Naomi, Mungi and Helen talk about:

-       Naomi’s experience of growing up in South Africa during apartheid

-       Growing up an activist and having a sense of duty

-       Getting all of us to have difficult conversations

-       Telling the story as part of the healing process

-       Why ‘boundaries’ are the ultimate in self-care

-       How community is everything

-       Faith (spoiler alert: mother and daughter have very different views)

-       Why Midsomer Murders and red wine can both help us to be sad, well

Find out more about Mungi on Instagram @mungi.ngomane or on Twitter @EverydayUbuntu and you can read more about Everyday Ubuntu here. Follow Helen on social media @MsHelenRussell How To Be Sad, the book, is out now. Thanks to Joel Grove for production and to Matt Clacher at HarperCollins for making this podcast happen.