The Nonlinear Library EA - #196 - The edge cases of sentience and why they matter (Jonathan Birch on The 80,000 Hours Podcast) by 80000 Hours
Aug 17, 2024
20:20
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: #196 - The edge cases of sentience and why they matter (Jonathan Birch on The 80,000 Hours Podcast), published by 80000 Hours on August 17, 2024 on The Effective Altruism Forum.
We just published an interview: Jonathan Birch on the edge cases of sentience and why they matter. Listen on Spotify, watch on Youtube, or click through for other audio options, the transcript, and related links. Below are the episode summary and some key excerpts.
Episode summary
In the 1980s, it was still apparently common to perform surgery on newborn babies without anaesthetic on both sides of the Atlantic. This led to appalling cases, and to public outcry, and to campaigns to change clinical practice. And as soon as [some courageous scientists] looked for evidence, it showed that this practice was completely indefensible and then the clinical practice was changed.
People don't need convincing anymore that we should take newborn human babies seriously as sentience candidates. But the tale is a useful cautionary tale, because it shows you how deep that overconfidence can run and how problematic it can be. It just underlines this point that overconfidence about sentience is everywhere and is dangerous.
Jonathan Birch
In today's episode, host Luisa Rodriguez speaks to Dr Jonathan Birch - philosophy professor at the London School of Economics - about his new book, The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. (Check out the free PDF version!)
They cover:
Candidates for sentience - such as humans with consciousness disorders, foetuses, neural organoids, invertebrates, and AIs.
Humanity's history of acting as if we're sure that such beings are incapable of having subjective experiences - and why Jonathan thinks that that certainty is completely unjustified.
Chilling tales about overconfident policies that probably caused significant suffering for decades.
How policymakers can act ethically given real uncertainty.
Whether simulating the brain of the roundworm C. elegans or Drosophila (aka fruit flies) would create minds equally sentient to the biological versions.
How new technologies like brain organoids could replace animal testing, and how big the risk is that they could be sentient too.
Why Jonathan is so excited about citizens' assemblies.
Jonathan's conversation with the Dalai Lama about whether insects are sentient.
And plenty more.
Producer and editor: Keiran Harris
Audio engineering by Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong
Additional content editing: Katy Moore and Luisa Rodriguez
Transcriptions: Katy Moore
Highlights
The history of neonatal surgery without anaesthetic
Jonathan Birch: It's another case I found unbelievable: in the 1980s, it was still apparently common to perform surgery on newborn babies without anaesthetic on both sides of the Atlantic. This led to appalling cases, and to public outcry, and to campaigns to change clinical practice. There was a public campaign led by someone called Jill Lawson, whose baby son had been operated on in this way and had died.
And at the same time, evidence was being gathered to bear on the questions by some pretty courageous scientists, I would say. They got very heavily attacked for doing this work, but they knew evidence was needed to change clinical practice. And they showed that, if this protocol is done, there were massive stress responses in the baby, massive stress responses that reduce the chances of survival and lead to long-term developmental damage.
So as soon as they looked for evidence, the evidence showed that this practice was completely indefensible and then the clinical practice was changed.
So, in a way, people don't need convincing anymore that we should take newborn human babies seriously as sentience candidates. But the tale is a useful cautionary tale, because it...
We just published an interview: Jonathan Birch on the edge cases of sentience and why they matter. Listen on Spotify, watch on Youtube, or click through for other audio options, the transcript, and related links. Below are the episode summary and some key excerpts.
Episode summary
In the 1980s, it was still apparently common to perform surgery on newborn babies without anaesthetic on both sides of the Atlantic. This led to appalling cases, and to public outcry, and to campaigns to change clinical practice. And as soon as [some courageous scientists] looked for evidence, it showed that this practice was completely indefensible and then the clinical practice was changed.
People don't need convincing anymore that we should take newborn human babies seriously as sentience candidates. But the tale is a useful cautionary tale, because it shows you how deep that overconfidence can run and how problematic it can be. It just underlines this point that overconfidence about sentience is everywhere and is dangerous.
Jonathan Birch
In today's episode, host Luisa Rodriguez speaks to Dr Jonathan Birch - philosophy professor at the London School of Economics - about his new book, The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. (Check out the free PDF version!)
They cover:
Candidates for sentience - such as humans with consciousness disorders, foetuses, neural organoids, invertebrates, and AIs.
Humanity's history of acting as if we're sure that such beings are incapable of having subjective experiences - and why Jonathan thinks that that certainty is completely unjustified.
Chilling tales about overconfident policies that probably caused significant suffering for decades.
How policymakers can act ethically given real uncertainty.
Whether simulating the brain of the roundworm C. elegans or Drosophila (aka fruit flies) would create minds equally sentient to the biological versions.
How new technologies like brain organoids could replace animal testing, and how big the risk is that they could be sentient too.
Why Jonathan is so excited about citizens' assemblies.
Jonathan's conversation with the Dalai Lama about whether insects are sentient.
And plenty more.
Producer and editor: Keiran Harris
Audio engineering by Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong
Additional content editing: Katy Moore and Luisa Rodriguez
Transcriptions: Katy Moore
Highlights
The history of neonatal surgery without anaesthetic
Jonathan Birch: It's another case I found unbelievable: in the 1980s, it was still apparently common to perform surgery on newborn babies without anaesthetic on both sides of the Atlantic. This led to appalling cases, and to public outcry, and to campaigns to change clinical practice. There was a public campaign led by someone called Jill Lawson, whose baby son had been operated on in this way and had died.
And at the same time, evidence was being gathered to bear on the questions by some pretty courageous scientists, I would say. They got very heavily attacked for doing this work, but they knew evidence was needed to change clinical practice. And they showed that, if this protocol is done, there were massive stress responses in the baby, massive stress responses that reduce the chances of survival and lead to long-term developmental damage.
So as soon as they looked for evidence, the evidence showed that this practice was completely indefensible and then the clinical practice was changed.
So, in a way, people don't need convincing anymore that we should take newborn human babies seriously as sentience candidates. But the tale is a useful cautionary tale, because it...