Journalist Graeme Wood discusses the aftermath of the October 7 atrocities in Israel, including the records of the pogrom, the alienation between the Israeli state and people, ultra-Orthodox Jews in the war effort, the Hamas/ISIS comparison, and civilian deaths in Gaza.
Israel's ghost towns post-October 7th attack portrayed a sense of mourning and silence, with the old city of Jerusalem empty and devoid of tourists.
Defeating Hamas without causing massive destruction and civilian casualties is deemed unlikely by informed Israelis, raising concerns about stability in neighboring countries like Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia.
Deep dives
Arrival in Israel and the Atmosphere
The speaker arrived in Israel just after the October 7th attack. The atmosphere in Jerusalem was described as creepy, with a sense of mourning and silence. The old city, usually filled with activity, was empty and devoid of tourists. The ultra-Orthodox population seemed to carry on with their normal routine, while the city of Tel Aviv was different, being both more affected by rocket attacks and the mobilization of soldiers.
Hamas's Catastrophic Success and Sadism
Hamas's success in the attack on October 7th surprised observers. The speaker noted that the Hamas videos displaying their actions were sadistic, but lacked the organized approach seen in ISIS videos. The Gaza conflict raised questions about the level of premeditation behind Hamas's actions and the motivations behind their extreme violence. Denialism and skepticism regarding the events of October 7th were also discussed.
Israeli Goals and Civilian Casualties
Discussions centered around Israel's goals in Gaza and the difficulty of achieving them without significant casualties. The speaker highlighted the belief among informed Israelis that defeating Hamas without causing massive destruction and civilian casualties is unlikely. The potential for a regional upheaval and the worries surrounding stability in countries like Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia were also mentioned.
Response from the United States and Surprises in Reporting
The United States government's response was described as generally urging restraint but not stopping Israel's actions. The speaker emphasized that Israeli mindset prioritizes stopping Hamas over concerns about American public opinion. The absence of additional fronts opening up and the lack of a well-thought-out strategy from Hamas after the initial attack were noted as surprising aspects of the conflict.
Graeme Wood is in Israel to report on the aftermath of the October 7 atrocities for The Atlantic. He joins Jamie to share his impressions of Israel from before and after the attack, including:
-records (and recordings) of the pogrom
-the alienation between the Israeli state and the Israeli people
-the participation ultra-Orthodox Jews in the war effort