In this episode of the 'Pfeffer on Power' podcast, host Jeffrey Pfeffer, a professor at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business, is joined by John Rossman, author of four books on leadership and business innovation, including The Amazon Way and his new book Big Bet Leadership. He is an early Amazon executive who played a key role in launching the Amazon marketplace business in 2002. Today, he is a leading keynote speaker on leadership for innovation and transformation. He has served as the senior technology advisor at the Gates Foundation and senior innovation advisor at T-Mobile and is the founder of Rossman Partners, a strategy & leadership solutions firm.
John and Jeffrey discuss how corporate titans like Amazon sculpt their industry-dominating strategies. John Rossman helped mold Amazon's colossal marketplace. John tells Jeffrey his six cardinal rules for skillfully navigating Amazon’s early days and the pivotal role of trust in accelerating one's career. John also shares insights into using memo crafting as a clarity tool and customer happiness as the central dogma. Check out this episode for some real insight on navigating corporate power.
- 00:00 Welcome to Pfeffer on Power: Introducing Jon Rossman
- 02:42 Jon Rossman's Journey: From Amazon to Author
- 06:37 Rules to Navigating Corporate America: Rule 1: Earn Trust
- 07:53 Rule 2: Be an Active and Early Risk Manager
- 09:54 Rule 3: You Have to Manage Dependencies
- 12:19 Rule 4: Having the Right Sense of Urgency
- 14:50 Rule 5: Manage Up
- 17:04 Rule 6: Clarify in Your Communications
- 21:29 Amazon as a Political Place
- 23:26 Why Jon Left Amazon
- 25:11 Wrapping Up: The Essence of Power and Autonomy
Pfeffer on Power is produced by University FM.
Episode Quotes:
You have to manage dependencies
10:00: So, the 14th leadership principle at Amazon is "deliver results." And the other ones tend to get the fanfare, but I'm telling you, the 14th is the one that differentiates Amazon. Like, you have to deliver results. Well, most things are not within your control; then you're really managing dependencies, and so you see this very active dependency management process. And so it's all based off of kind of "trust, but verify," like, you're always featuring the bad news. You're always having check-in meetings. You don't trust what they say. You ask more for proof points and demonstrations, and you don't assume anything. And so, sometimes, that gets into hedging and creating alternate paths. But people that are successful at Amazon are extremely good at managing dependencies upon others.
Why clear expectations are the cornerstone of trust
06:42: Trust and transparency sound like such great attributes to have, but most people don't really understand what trust is. Trust is about setting expectations and hitting expectations. And if you can trust that somebody sets good expectations and then hits those expectations, you can work together through almost anything. And most people don't actually understand what that word "trust" is; they think it means something like, you know, trustworthy or something like that, but you can actually create a formula. And what most people don't do well is they don't set expectations very well. And when you don't set expectations very well, then you each have a vague understanding of what the expectation is. And that's where so many things go sideways.
Without risk, there are no new innovations
08:20: Alpha risk is where we create new innovations. And so, you have to be extremely good at communicating your concept and where it's going. You also have to be very good at teaming networks and internal negotiating relative to this. So, this builds off of the trust aspect of setting expectations.
Show Links:
Pfeffer on Power