The 'Little Magician', the 'Sly Fox' or - to our expert guest - a 6.5/10 president. We're onto President number 8, Martin Van Buren.

Don is joined by Edward Widmer - historian, writer, librarian, and musician who served as a speechwriter in the Clinton White House. One of Ted's many books is a biography of Martin Van Buren, published by Times Books in 2005.

From success in the creation of a modern democratic party, to economic depression, war against Canada and more; in this episode you'll hear about the highs and lows of Van Buren's one term presidency.

Produced by Sophie Gee. Edited by Aidan Lonergan. Senior Producer was Charlotte Long.

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