If you want to tell the story of popular music globally in the last century, you really can’t do it without telling the story of American pop music. And if you want to tell the story of AMERICAN pop music, well, that story begins and ends with the Black American community: jazz, the blues, gospel music, rock n’ roll, R&B, and hip-hop. And if you want to tell the story of that community, you also need to understand the Bible—the Exodus, the prophets, and beyond.

But who could possibly tell this entire story from start to finish? Basically only one person: multiple Grammy award winning artist and producer Warryn Campbell. He’s worked and won awards with the biggest names in music, from Kanye and Alicia Keys, to Mary Mary and Missy Elliott, and more. And he’s also an ordained pastor out in California who has a deep understanding of faith and spirituality in American life.

This week Ari and Warryn talked about the history of American music; what it means to bear the divine image; religious and secular music; the backstory behind one of Kanye’s earliest hit singles; Abraham and counterculture; what we can learn from Dr. Dre; Moses in the Jewish and Black American communities; and the next great artist you need to keep your eye on!

Good Faith Effort is a production of Bnai Zion and SoulShop.