Creative Agency Account Manager Podcast Why you need a relationship with marketing procurement, with Tina Fegent
Aug 24, 2020
46:48
Welcome to the Creative Agency Account Manager Podcast with me, Jenny Plant from Account Management Skills Training. I'm on a mission to help those in agency client service keep andgrow their existing relationships. So their agency business can thrive
Welcome to Episode two of the Creative Agency Account Manager podcast. Today I'm thrilled to speak to Tina Fegent. Tina is a marketing procurement consultant with 28 years experience, and the great thing about Tina is she's worked for agencies but also for clients, and she's going to tell you a bit about that.
There are loads of golden nuggets for you in this episode, and I really hope you enjoy it. She's going to cover what she sees has changed in terms of procuring services with remote pitching, and some of the trends she's seeing. We're recording this in August 2020. She going to share her views on the latest IPA report about the future of account management. She's going to talk to us about why you need to be developing relationships with procurement and some brilliant insider tips on what to do during a pitch.
And there were loads more nuggets of wisdom that she shares with us. So grab a pen and take some notes, because I think it's really valuable stuff. A side note, there's a bit of background noise in this episode, which I hope is not too distracting. We happened to record it on one of the hottest days of the year in August 2020 and we have Windows open and fans on, so I hope it doesn't distract from the core of this episode, and you come away with some value.
Jenny: All right, well, I am thrilled to have as my second guest Tina Fegent, who is a marketing procurement consultant with over 25 years experience and I first met Tina probably a couple of years ago. We had a few coffees together didn't we, but the moment that I remember the most was when we were walking into the IPA conference business conference together like being with a rock star. Everyone was like Tina, Tina, you're so popular.
So she knows everyone in the industry, and a couple of things that stand out for me before I asked her to introduce herself is she has worked both agency and clients site, so she's got really good understanding of you know how things work on both sides of the fence, which I think is really insightful for us. The second point is, she's very active in the marketing procurement community, and she's sort of got leadership quality. She's always posting articles, she writes for Campaign magazine, so she really shares her voice and lends her voice. So she's very inspiring. I've already listened to a couple of podcasts with her before. Super impressive and, yeah, I'm really excited about getting her views on things and just diving into the interview. So, Tina, welcome.
Tina: Thank you, Jenny.
Jenny: That's all right. Perhaps you could spend a couple of minutes just introducing yourself - anything that I've missed.
Tina: I am honoured to be the second guest on your podcast. Thank you for the kind intro. So yes, I've got over 25 years on this but that makes me sound a bit old if I'm getting toward 30 years. So firstly in marketing procurement, when I worked for Cellnet, I don't if your listeners will know but that is now Telefonica. I got there and, again, for the older generation, the user guides for mobile phones used to be really big and massive. I got there and the advertising agency was buying them. I was, like, from a procurement point of view, you know, can I look at going direct, and it was a 50% saving, so that's why I go into market procurement. And at that time, hardly anybody else was looking at marketing procurement globally. I think the guys at Guinness were, and Natwest were, so yes, I have always been in procurement. I worked for SmithKlineBeecham, Ribena vending machines and Lucozade. Then I went to Orange. I had a fantastic time there, I still have my Orange number and I can't bear to move away from the Orange/EE network. Then I went to with two advertising agencies as a commercial director, so quite an interesting, quite a shock to then work agency-side. I've never worked so hard in my life, but great insight from the point of view as commercial director and I started my own consultancy 14 years ago actually. Actually, to begin with, for agencies but to get involved with clients that could be with CMOs, pitches, could be reviewing the whole agency base, mentoring for procurement people and actually I do a bit of agency work as well, and obviously you and I have worked recently on a client. So looking at tenders, doing trade and stuff like that. I chair our trade body CIPS and I chair the marketing group there. So, yes, I've been doing it for 25 years now.
Jenny: It is so impressive. And I think what we forgot to mention, which I was hoping you would, but you were voted one of the most powerful people in advertising. You were the first marketed procurement person to be voted most powerful by Campaign magazine, right?
Tina: Yeah, really. I was really touched. 2017 to being included, and I've been in there every year since and I think last year I got 'good egg' rating, so really good from a procurement point of view that the trade press thinks that, actually, and you said, you know, I just spent quite a lot of my time talking about good procurement, you know?
Jenny: Well done, honestly. Before I get on to the questions, just something you said there that you were brought in by a couple of agencies to be commercial director. And just for those maybe agency leaders thinking about, is there a need for a commercial director that has a better understanding of procurement? So can you talk a bit about what your role actually was in that commercial director role?
Tina: Yeah, I think it's a great question because actually you've got FDs? And, if you've got FDs, why do you need a commercial person? But I think in my two roles I just got a different slant and I think, you know, you are facing procurement more and more as an agency, and I think agency land can be very negative about procurement. They don't want them there. So I think FDs, rightly or wrongly, haven't always got the relevant experience to know how to work procurement and are often more internally focused. So I think my roles were both internal and external when I was agency side. Actually, I've been surprised how there is still quite a lack of procurement people, agency side, but actually, you need to have people that understand the interface with the client side, you know, it's not just about doing fees. It's about doing quarterly commercial reviews , it's being practical on your spend and actually if you've got a client question that sort of stuff, to have someone on the agency side that is attuned to everything that's come from it is a difficult mindset from Finance, so I do think agencies could look to invest in that support not necessarily in a full time role, but I think with an increased level of understanding of procurement, that's what my role was, when I was agency side.
Jenny: It's really interesting you say that because I've been thinking about this for a long, long time. Agency leaders who go into a traditional kind of negotiation with procurement. My understanding is procurement people typically are very well versed in negotiation skills. The training is a lot more comprehensive. Is that right?
Tina: Yes. I mean, you know, we are trained in procurement, we've all done negotiation training and agencies often haven't. It could be little nuggets, like reading things upside down. You know, we might look at someones notepad and have they got, you know, their rates or 'musn't go lower', things like that. You know, having time out when you're in negotiation, you see the agency person getting redder and redder. We can say 'we'll have time out'. We go away talk about the options. We would have prepared. We would have had two or three scenarios, terms like 'MDO', most desired offer, but it does cut the negotiation process down to like an hour. Yeah. No, I totally agree, Jenny. I think it is an art.
Jenny: I think it sounds like it absolutely would be, because the investment that you put into some kind of advice from a procurement specialist would ultimately save you money in the long term, couldn't it? These tiny little things, all of these things add up. Just talking about your procurement services at the moment and the types of consultancy pieces that you've been involved with lately. Obviously, we're recording this mid August 2020. We're in the middle of a pandemic, the Covid 19 situation, we're starting to come out of lock down. Just curious to know what have you seen, if anything, of different trends that are happening recently that maybe as a result of the pandemic have caused I don't know, companies to put a procurement process in place to kind of look at their supply list.
Tina: Yeah, I think what I've seen is that procurement has moved up the supply chain, as it were. So I was interviewing for another conference the head of procurement for M&S and he was saying he's now dealing with C Suite on a more regular basis because, and I know listeners are going to hate it, but it was about cost savings. It had to be, you know, because the food part carried on and pushed the fashion side off. But you know, I've found colleagues in banks and FMCG, they've all been really, really busy because I think it has helped cement their role in that they are a key player. I think before we've always had a bit of a chip on our shoulder that you don't often have someone at board level. If you're involved in indirect procurement, these things are not always involved at manufacturing level. Spending direct, so if you work for Diageo, the oats to make the Guinness and the tin cans. Indirect will be marketing, HR, IT services, so obviously marketing is indirect procurement. We're often sometimes not on the board, so I think what's happened coming out of this from a procurement point of view is it's elevated the role and actually a lot of my procurement clients say they've never been so busy. Because people are coming to them. There's been a recapitalisation of suppliers again, the M&S chap was saying that he spent a long time prioritising their suppliers, Tier 1 and Tier 2. And then what happens is, at a level above that's pandemic criticial, so for example pest control. It's not a marketing example, but actually, he would never put them as Tie 1 or tier 2 supplier. Of course, now come the pandemic they are now critical. So it's really interesting how they categorise their suppliers. So I think, you know, it's really been elevated in stages. I think it's maybe think about the strategic partnerships. Agencies have responded on the whole really well. There's been a few that I've heard that haven't done as great, you know, taking a month or two to ring up the clients. But on the whole, you know, agencies I think have really stepped in and again we used the word partnership it's a word at procurement we hate and agencies love it, but I think we have seen a lot of partnerships really come to the forefront where those key strategic relationships with the clients that are continuing to invest, or maybe having to cut back but make money work a bit harder because there's obviously not point going on outdoor and cinema when no one's around, I thinkit really bear fruition because I think those were in the trenches together, will really help. And also I've been very busy during this period with pitches, doing them virtually online. I do think that at one stage you do need to have a face to face because marketing is a people business. Much as we're all experts in Zoom etc and Teams now, I do think we do need that degree of face to face. But I think clients have been more available as they're not travelling, they're not spending an hour and half each way. The pitches that I've been involved in, the clients have been much more open to having more time, we've had two or three meetings where usually you'd have perhaps one, trying to get everyone involved. It's easy to get a guy from New York to dial in. I think, it's been positive, on the negative side unfortunately there's redundancies and I've got CMO clients that are now having to look around. It's mid August, the furlough scheme has started to come to an end. So that's sad to see, on agency side. But we'll come out of it whenever and I think relationships will be stronger and deeper and we will have different ways of working? However they evolve, it will be great. You just got to try and look at the positives and work together on this sort of thing.
Jenny: You mentioned the agencies have been responding really well in terms of partnering with their clients. Can you give us a couple of examples? Have they been sort of more flexible with payment terms or, I don't know, just stepping up to offer more advice or more direction, what kinds of things that they've been doing differently?
Tina: Yeah, I think it's all of that. It's like, 'we were going to spend £5 million on media but it might be 5, it might be two and half, it might be one' . So let's go through some more modelling on the media side. I've seen agency come back and say 'actually we've look at this technology and we could do this online experience'. Or I talked to a retail client last week that actually have done an experience with their media cost two weeks ago. So, yeah, I think they've been really practical, I think they been looking at what other clients have been doing. Obviously each client has been in their own bubble. But, you know, we're looking at what's a Bank doing FMCG, versus Manufacture? I think they've been really helpful in terms of saying 'look, you know, this is what other clients are doing', and then having discussions about what happens to the staff, because staff did need to be furloughed, so working with clients on what works best. Some clients obviously had their spend cut, some have carried on spending, some have reduced, but they will come back. They will remember the agencies that work with them. It's always been about being proactive, you know, a good agency, a good account person is someone who is proactive, and I think on the whole its been really good to during this pandemic, people have stepped up.
Jenny: That's excellent. You mentioned before that one of the key skills for an account manager off the relationship is pro activity just sort of expanding on that? Given your number of years in the business, what other skills do you think are key for a really good account manager?
Tina: Being proactive, I think being able to hold senior level discussions. I think that's the big crux of the IPA report. But being able to deal with senior people. I think, being financially aware, I think that is an area that could be improved in terms of having those 'why are we all doing this?' (conversations). Magic logic, which is now 15 years ago, said, it's about getting profitable ideas that work for both sides. Why is the client investing the money in that PR, that digital, that event? Because they need to drive sales. agrees it. An account person who's not even focussed that well, how can they deliver for the client? So I think it's being able to have the dialogue with senior people on the client side, being financially aware and I think also management, because I think their role is very much about co-ordinating agency's resource because they take the brief, go out and work with the creative, production, planners etc to deliver what is right for that client. But being able to manage, to be to coordinate and effect change, deliver for that client is really key, and to have that client top of mind. It's obviously being able to deliver for the agency as well, you can’t deliver for the client at 0% profit because you’re not delivering for the agency then. It's making sure you can get the skills of the agency resources to deliver to match the client's brief on time and in line with the budget as well. And that is a skill. It does take a skill to do that, and I think account managers, the right ones, are really, really good. At the end of the day the key one is being focussed on the client’s business. That's what is top of their mind.
Welcome to Episode two of the Creative Agency Account Manager podcast. Today I'm thrilled to speak to Tina Fegent. Tina is a marketing procurement consultant with 28 years experience, and the great thing about Tina is she's worked for agencies but also for clients, and she's going to tell you a bit about that.
There are loads of golden nuggets for you in this episode, and I really hope you enjoy it. She's going to cover what she sees has changed in terms of procuring services with remote pitching, and some of the trends she's seeing. We're recording this in August 2020. She going to share her views on the latest IPA report about the future of account management. She's going to talk to us about why you need to be developing relationships with procurement and some brilliant insider tips on what to do during a pitch.
And there were loads more nuggets of wisdom that she shares with us. So grab a pen and take some notes, because I think it's really valuable stuff. A side note, there's a bit of background noise in this episode, which I hope is not too distracting. We happened to record it on one of the hottest days of the year in August 2020 and we have Windows open and fans on, so I hope it doesn't distract from the core of this episode, and you come away with some value.
Jenny: All right, well, I am thrilled to have as my second guest Tina Fegent, who is a marketing procurement consultant with over 25 years experience and I first met Tina probably a couple of years ago. We had a few coffees together didn't we, but the moment that I remember the most was when we were walking into the IPA conference business conference together like being with a rock star. Everyone was like Tina, Tina, you're so popular.
So she knows everyone in the industry, and a couple of things that stand out for me before I asked her to introduce herself is she has worked both agency and clients site, so she's got really good understanding of you know how things work on both sides of the fence, which I think is really insightful for us. The second point is, she's very active in the marketing procurement community, and she's sort of got leadership quality. She's always posting articles, she writes for Campaign magazine, so she really shares her voice and lends her voice. So she's very inspiring. I've already listened to a couple of podcasts with her before. Super impressive and, yeah, I'm really excited about getting her views on things and just diving into the interview. So, Tina, welcome.
Tina: Thank you, Jenny.
Jenny: That's all right. Perhaps you could spend a couple of minutes just introducing yourself - anything that I've missed.
Tina: I am honoured to be the second guest on your podcast. Thank you for the kind intro. So yes, I've got over 25 years on this but that makes me sound a bit old if I'm getting toward 30 years. So firstly in marketing procurement, when I worked for Cellnet, I don't if your listeners will know but that is now Telefonica. I got there and, again, for the older generation, the user guides for mobile phones used to be really big and massive. I got there and the advertising agency was buying them. I was, like, from a procurement point of view, you know, can I look at going direct, and it was a 50% saving, so that's why I go into market procurement. And at that time, hardly anybody else was looking at marketing procurement globally. I think the guys at Guinness were, and Natwest were, so yes, I have always been in procurement. I worked for SmithKlineBeecham, Ribena vending machines and Lucozade. Then I went to Orange. I had a fantastic time there, I still have my Orange number and I can't bear to move away from the Orange/EE network. Then I went to with two advertising agencies as a commercial director, so quite an interesting, quite a shock to then work agency-side. I've never worked so hard in my life, but great insight from the point of view as commercial director and I started my own consultancy 14 years ago actually. Actually, to begin with, for agencies but to get involved with clients that could be with CMOs, pitches, could be reviewing the whole agency base, mentoring for procurement people and actually I do a bit of agency work as well, and obviously you and I have worked recently on a client. So looking at tenders, doing trade and stuff like that. I chair our trade body CIPS and I chair the marketing group there. So, yes, I've been doing it for 25 years now.
Jenny: It is so impressive. And I think what we forgot to mention, which I was hoping you would, but you were voted one of the most powerful people in advertising. You were the first marketed procurement person to be voted most powerful by Campaign magazine, right?
Tina: Yeah, really. I was really touched. 2017 to being included, and I've been in there every year since and I think last year I got 'good egg' rating, so really good from a procurement point of view that the trade press thinks that, actually, and you said, you know, I just spent quite a lot of my time talking about good procurement, you know?
Jenny: Well done, honestly. Before I get on to the questions, just something you said there that you were brought in by a couple of agencies to be commercial director. And just for those maybe agency leaders thinking about, is there a need for a commercial director that has a better understanding of procurement? So can you talk a bit about what your role actually was in that commercial director role?
Tina: Yeah, I think it's a great question because actually you've got FDs? And, if you've got FDs, why do you need a commercial person? But I think in my two roles I just got a different slant and I think, you know, you are facing procurement more and more as an agency, and I think agency land can be very negative about procurement. They don't want them there. So I think FDs, rightly or wrongly, haven't always got the relevant experience to know how to work procurement and are often more internally focused. So I think my roles were both internal and external when I was agency side. Actually, I've been surprised how there is still quite a lack of procurement people, agency side, but actually, you need to have people that understand the interface with the client side, you know, it's not just about doing fees. It's about doing quarterly commercial reviews , it's being practical on your spend and actually if you've got a client question that sort of stuff, to have someone on the agency side that is attuned to everything that's come from it is a difficult mindset from Finance, so I do think agencies could look to invest in that support not necessarily in a full time role, but I think with an increased level of understanding of procurement, that's what my role was, when I was agency side.
Jenny: It's really interesting you say that because I've been thinking about this for a long, long time. Agency leaders who go into a traditional kind of negotiation with procurement. My understanding is procurement people typically are very well versed in negotiation skills. The training is a lot more comprehensive. Is that right?
Tina: Yes. I mean, you know, we are trained in procurement, we've all done negotiation training and agencies often haven't. It could be little nuggets, like reading things upside down. You know, we might look at someones notepad and have they got, you know, their rates or 'musn't go lower', things like that. You know, having time out when you're in negotiation, you see the agency person getting redder and redder. We can say 'we'll have time out'. We go away talk about the options. We would have prepared. We would have had two or three scenarios, terms like 'MDO', most desired offer, but it does cut the negotiation process down to like an hour. Yeah. No, I totally agree, Jenny. I think it is an art.
Jenny: I think it sounds like it absolutely would be, because the investment that you put into some kind of advice from a procurement specialist would ultimately save you money in the long term, couldn't it? These tiny little things, all of these things add up. Just talking about your procurement services at the moment and the types of consultancy pieces that you've been involved with lately. Obviously, we're recording this mid August 2020. We're in the middle of a pandemic, the Covid 19 situation, we're starting to come out of lock down. Just curious to know what have you seen, if anything, of different trends that are happening recently that maybe as a result of the pandemic have caused I don't know, companies to put a procurement process in place to kind of look at their supply list.
Tina: Yeah, I think what I've seen is that procurement has moved up the supply chain, as it were. So I was interviewing for another conference the head of procurement for M&S and he was saying he's now dealing with C Suite on a more regular basis because, and I know listeners are going to hate it, but it was about cost savings. It had to be, you know, because the food part carried on and pushed the fashion side off. But you know, I've found colleagues in banks and FMCG, they've all been really, really busy because I think it has helped cement their role in that they are a key player. I think before we've always had a bit of a chip on our shoulder that you don't often have someone at board level. If you're involved in indirect procurement, these things are not always involved at manufacturing level. Spending direct, so if you work for Diageo, the oats to make the Guinness and the tin cans. Indirect will be marketing, HR, IT services, so obviously marketing is indirect procurement. We're often sometimes not on the board, so I think what's happened coming out of this from a procurement point of view is it's elevated the role and actually a lot of my procurement clients say they've never been so busy. Because people are coming to them. There's been a recapitalisation of suppliers again, the M&S chap was saying that he spent a long time prioritising their suppliers, Tier 1 and Tier 2. And then what happens is, at a level above that's pandemic criticial, so for example pest control. It's not a marketing example, but actually, he would never put them as Tie 1 or tier 2 supplier. Of course, now come the pandemic they are now critical. So it's really interesting how they categorise their suppliers. So I think, you know, it's really been elevated in stages. I think it's maybe think about the strategic partnerships. Agencies have responded on the whole really well. There's been a few that I've heard that haven't done as great, you know, taking a month or two to ring up the clients. But on the whole, you know, agencies I think have really stepped in and again we used the word partnership it's a word at procurement we hate and agencies love it, but I think we have seen a lot of partnerships really come to the forefront where those key strategic relationships with the clients that are continuing to invest, or maybe having to cut back but make money work a bit harder because there's obviously not point going on outdoor and cinema when no one's around, I thinkit really bear fruition because I think those were in the trenches together, will really help. And also I've been very busy during this period with pitches, doing them virtually online. I do think that at one stage you do need to have a face to face because marketing is a people business. Much as we're all experts in Zoom etc and Teams now, I do think we do need that degree of face to face. But I think clients have been more available as they're not travelling, they're not spending an hour and half each way. The pitches that I've been involved in, the clients have been much more open to having more time, we've had two or three meetings where usually you'd have perhaps one, trying to get everyone involved. It's easy to get a guy from New York to dial in. I think, it's been positive, on the negative side unfortunately there's redundancies and I've got CMO clients that are now having to look around. It's mid August, the furlough scheme has started to come to an end. So that's sad to see, on agency side. But we'll come out of it whenever and I think relationships will be stronger and deeper and we will have different ways of working? However they evolve, it will be great. You just got to try and look at the positives and work together on this sort of thing.
Jenny: You mentioned the agencies have been responding really well in terms of partnering with their clients. Can you give us a couple of examples? Have they been sort of more flexible with payment terms or, I don't know, just stepping up to offer more advice or more direction, what kinds of things that they've been doing differently?
Tina: Yeah, I think it's all of that. It's like, 'we were going to spend £5 million on media but it might be 5, it might be two and half, it might be one' . So let's go through some more modelling on the media side. I've seen agency come back and say 'actually we've look at this technology and we could do this online experience'. Or I talked to a retail client last week that actually have done an experience with their media cost two weeks ago. So, yeah, I think they've been really practical, I think they been looking at what other clients have been doing. Obviously each client has been in their own bubble. But, you know, we're looking at what's a Bank doing FMCG, versus Manufacture? I think they've been really helpful in terms of saying 'look, you know, this is what other clients are doing', and then having discussions about what happens to the staff, because staff did need to be furloughed, so working with clients on what works best. Some clients obviously had their spend cut, some have carried on spending, some have reduced, but they will come back. They will remember the agencies that work with them. It's always been about being proactive, you know, a good agency, a good account person is someone who is proactive, and I think on the whole its been really good to during this pandemic, people have stepped up.
Jenny: That's excellent. You mentioned before that one of the key skills for an account manager off the relationship is pro activity just sort of expanding on that? Given your number of years in the business, what other skills do you think are key for a really good account manager?
Tina: Being proactive, I think being able to hold senior level discussions. I think that's the big crux of the IPA report. But being able to deal with senior people. I think, being financially aware, I think that is an area that could be improved in terms of having those 'why are we all doing this?' (conversations). Magic logic, which is now 15 years ago, said, it's about getting profitable ideas that work for both sides. Why is the client investing the money in that PR, that digital, that event? Because they need to drive sales. agrees it. An account person who's not even focussed that well, how can they deliver for the client? So I think it's being able to have the dialogue with senior people on the client side, being financially aware and I think also management, because I think their role is very much about co-ordinating agency's resource because they take the brief, go out and work with the creative, production, planners etc to deliver what is right for that client. But being able to manage, to be to coordinate and effect change, deliver for that client is really key, and to have that client top of mind. It's obviously being able to deliver for the agency as well, you can’t deliver for the client at 0% profit because you’re not delivering for the agency then. It's making sure you can get the skills of the agency resources to deliver to match the client's brief on time and in line with the budget as well. And that is a skill. It does take a skill to do that, and I think account managers, the right ones, are really, really good. At the end of the day the key one is being focussed on the client’s business. That's what is top of their mind.
Jenny: I'm sure you know Tim Williams from Ignition Consulting Group, he delivered a report for the AAA between agencies and clients. It was a huge global study and it was sponsored by a lot of the marketing bodies globally. But one of the questions was, What are you actually selling? You know, as an agency and all the answers came back from agencies saying creativity, strategy, people, solutions. And the outcome was you are selling business outcomes. You know, just as you said, what are the business outcomes that the client is going to receive as a result of working with you? So, I love that you brought up that point.
Tina: Yeah, I think you know, agencies, we focus on the awards sometimes, you know? Okay, everyone likes award winning work. But it’s exactly that, why is the client spending money with you? You have to be focused on that. When I worked agency side one of the most focussed teams in one of the agencies that I worked with was the one that had a bonus linked to how the advertising worked. And they were the most focussed ones in terms of ‘ok, that ad’s gone out. Where’s the data from you and where are we?’. Because they could see what was working. Obviously, these days, that's a lot easier to do with digital work but you’ve got to think why is client spending this money with you, it’s not a vane project. Even more so coming out of this period, about investment, we’ve got to talk to a procurement client, she works across five markets and she says, right we’re going to spend money as a whole now. So if France needs upweighting we will look at that, as opposed to five markets doing their own separate work. I think there’ll be a bigger fight for the money but I think there’ll be more focussed activity and making sure the work and the budgets go further than they ever did.
Jenny: That's a really good point, actually. You mentioned just earlier on about the latest report that came out. So this was a report that's just come out from the IPA commissioned by the IPA by Hall and Partners called the Future of Account management. And for those of you haven't read it, there were four key reasons for this report was coming out. One, we're losing talent to tech and management consultancies.Two, the value of account management needs redefining. Three, there's a growing need to collaborate across different agencies and four, obviously with the new normal with Covid and the economic impact we’re having to do more with less. So just curious to bring you in on this at this point about having to define the value that an account manager brings to clients, you know. Do you think clients see the value in account management?
Tina: I think they do. I was quite surprised by that report. I felt it was quite light in places and I was quite surprised. And there was a silly quote from a procurement person, and I’d like to know who they interviewed as I wouldn’t mind speaking to that procurement person themselves. I actually just looked back to the pitches I’ve done over the last few months to see potentially what was the cost of account management, and it was 20%. So actually in terms of costs versus creative account has a key role to play. My points are there are too many. In these pitches I said, there were twelve job titles in account management, ranging from Chief Executive to Account Exec. To me, what is the difference between a senior account manager and a junior account director? There’s absolutely no difference. You do not need twelve roles in account management. So I think they have a great role to play but I think there needs to be less of them. I think they need to be more senior and I think they need to be more focussed. The best one, James Murphy, I’ve got his number on my mobile phone and you see him with clients and he’s on it. He knows it, he’s in with the C-Suite. He’s on it with the clients but I can still ring him up and have a discussion about their fees and have a bit of a laugh as well. And you see him interacting with clients and why do you need - there are obviously good people that he’s worked with at other agencies, in case any of them are listening! - if you’ve got him and the support of one or two others, why do you need six different people in account management? The poor account exec on £45 per hour is arranging the meetings and organising the lunches from Pret’s, when they all go back into the offices, but I think they have a great role to play. I do think the IPA report underplays it. I do think they missed a few bits. I think they need to be more commercially aware, more focussed and be able to have those senior level discussions.
Jenny: And asking the right questions, presumably, because I think one of the other things I hadn't realised was that the chief brand officer for P and G, Mark Pritchard, said, I think this was a couple of years ago, that they wanted less account managers for their agencies and more creative. It seems to me that account management generally is in the spotlight right now, isn't it?
Tina: Yeah. Yeah, I'm surprised, I think it has a great role to play. I just wondered what the premise behind the IPA report was. If you look at when they did the study it was end of last year. Ok, I think they do acknowledge that things have changed but for me, I was quite surprised.I’ve always felt, and I know my counterparts do, that account management has a great role to play. We would just often question, obviously, the number of roles, their rate. Sometimes you need so many, it’s more about their value and their contribution.
Jenny: Why do you think that agencies put so many levels of account management forward?
Tina: The common complaint from clients that go to a meeting is there’s four from the agency, and they don't want to pay for that. I do hear that more and more. I think from an agency point of view, it’s covering everything. To have account managers and accounts execs there, the learning. But the client shouldn’t pay for that. It could be with a negotiation you need two ears, four ears? It could be that as well. They are on the account, they have been paid for. Those agencies lucky enough to have a retainer, they justify the hours, maybe? I think on the whole it’s good intentions, but in the last few years, clients have started to say, I don’t want to pay for them. But it’s been interesting because you don’t have those same levels - look at planning - head of planning, senior planner, junior planner. Creative - executive creative director, creative director, medium. Production - the same. I think it’s come out of salaries, pay rises, and that’s why it’s blossomed into more job titles.
Jenny: I think you're right. I think some agencies use as how are we going to have a promotional pathway for you and we create these different levels so that you feel that you're progressing in your career. I see a huge amount of disparity between when I worked with different agencies. If you have a title of account director often for me, it's not consistent. There's no consistency like you say.
Tina: Yeah, that's where it falls down on. If you've got an account director, I remember working for a media agency quite a few years ago for a bank and their argument was, our account director is five years more experienced than Agencies , 2 and 3. And it’s a fair point. That’s why I think the auctions are really awful as you don’t account for that. But who is educated in the fact that their account director is five years more experience than other agencies?
Jenny: Well, I was going to ask you actually. To that point, do you think agencies that want to put forward during the pitch process their different levels of account management should spend more time helping the client understand the value of each of those levels, or certainly the role of each levels in more detail.
Tina: I think it’s hard in a pitch process because obviously you’re in front of a senior person and one other. Obviously for a large account in the pitches I’ve actually been having discussions before the pitch. Fair discussions in which you can say, actually account management is 35%, the other agencies are 25%, why is that? They’d say, ‘based on our experience we think we need additional heads’. I think once the agency does their initial structure then it’s not just down to procurement, it’s down to the marketing client as well. Sometimes they’re left alone to look at the commercial side and actually before you know it the client’s like ‘why have I got all these account people?’. Procurement needs to engage with their marketing clients in any pitch proces and say, this is the structure they’ve sent, what do you think? You’ve got your past agency, you know what you have been paying and the structure of it and you should use that as a benchmark as well. It’s good to have that regular dialogue and then if you’ve got that commercial paperwork you can review that and say ‘ well, this did have some side projects - two gold, two silver, one bronze’ and we had these five people but actually now five goals actually need to upgrade it and rethink the structure.
Jenny: That's a really good point, actually. Going back a step to pitching because obviously we're doing virtual pitching now, you've seen many, many pitch performances on part of agencies in your time. I'm curious to know, where do you see really standout performances from account management? Can you give us a couple of examples of where it really has shone and the client's turned round and gone ‘wow’?
Tina: I think it’s someone who is managing the process. Be it face to face, be it online, in the pitch process the account manager is the one in charge. The best examples of the ones I deal with is someone who is the conductor of the orchestra. Is on top of it, they’ve got the tech set up. They know who’s talking at what time, who’s got what role. Watching the client, that is key. Are they getting restless, are they doing their emails? What are they engaging in? Recently on one pitch the account manager said, let’s stop now. He was quite good, he had a picture of a pipe, or something, and it means let’s have a break. He was really good at questioning, saying ‘what do you think?’. ‘Where are we, how are we going?’ That’s great brave to do during a pitch because the client could say they don’t like it and you’ve got another two hours to go! So it’s someone who is in charge, who’s managing it, who’s watching the client but also making sure the agency are on top of it. Keeping to time, because that’s my pet hate. Be it an hour, be it three hours, making sure everything runs smoothly. Knowing the client, someone who’s done their research. I say to agencies, have you looked up the procurement person on LinkedIn? When you know your audience, and if you know that Johnny who’s at Client X used to work at Client Y, you can get the SP on it and ask, are they allergic to nuts, or whatever. I think that’s where agencies fall down generally is on having that level of engagement with procurement on a par with marketing. I think in pitches that is often true that, sometimes we have to bust our way into a pitch, its often the front part of the pitch process and obviously we can’t score as well as the client’s do on strategy but not to have done your research, is where they fall down. Not addressing procurement in the pitch, treating procurement as one of the team. Often agencies don’t do that, they might ignore the procurement person totally, some might ask a silly question, but a good account person will fudge it. Please don’t leave the procurement section to the last budget slide. Even engage them beforehand, do not leave it to the pitch. Even if they are not in the briefing process, do we need to engage with procurement - get it over and done with! If they are one of these procurement people who’s all about ‘the computer says no’ and it’s all about costs, at least you know that. Procurement shouldn’t be the lead, obviously, they should be there to support. But if it is a very costed out client, you might not have got that from the marketing people. Engagement early with procurement as soon as you can in the pitch process as well.
Jenny: There's so many good, valuable tips there. Thank you for sharing. Honestly, I think that's like, I hope people were taking notes. One of the things you said earlier on, which I feel quite passionate about is the role of account management is a lot of the time about picking up on those subtleties of what's happening in a meeting and knowing when to shut up, when to speak, when to lead, when to step in. So I'm really glad you brought that bit up because that's the kind of softer element, but gets so overlooked and so taken, you know, for granted or feeling like that's not really important. But for me, I suppose, throughout my career over 30 years, it's the one thing that I've witnessed time and time again is where an account manager pays for themselves. You know, it's knowing what to do. It's having that sensitivity.
Tina: And learning to read upside down! Say if there’s a scoring sheet, any agencies listening, I hate you sitting next to me on pitches, but you should sit next to me on pitches because you’ll be able to see what I’m writing! That’s why I don’t like it.
Jenny: You mentioned earlier on and this is one of my questions, was I think for a lot of account people, there's a little bit of not fear exactly, but wondering how to engage with procurement. So you mentioned before, you know, make sure you know who they are. Connect with them on LinkedIn. Find out much as you can, develop a relationship. Tell us a bit more about that and where you see the value of account management actually creating relationships with the procurement team.
Tina: Yeah, I think it's not just in the pitch process, you know, it’s for life. And that’s where I see the biggest fall down for agencies. Procurement often get involved in the pitch but then obviously agencies don’t often see them. So my biggest tip for agencies, let them see you look them on LinkedIn, you might get scored for looking them up on LinkedIn, you never know. Clients do talk about, ‘did you get that box of biscuits after the pitch?’. I know we have a ethics register, but treat the procurement person, within the ethics. Look them up, do as you would with marketing but be a bit more vocal about it. Treat them as an equal throughout any part of the process because they are as important as a marketing person. Post pitch have a level of engagement with them, and that’s where agencies fall down time and time again. I have for years said to any agencies that I’ve worked with, have a procurement club, have a procurement quarterly session. Ok, it could be a bit dangerous to get all your procurement clients in one room every quarter, but hardly any of them have done it and I just think, you’re really missing a trick. Or when they, when we did go out and go to events, I’m lucky to get invited to them, I rarely see a procurement person at them. I say to the client organiser, have you invited them? Sometimes they have, sometimes they just haven’t. Christmas party, are we going to be the ones asking, how much is that costing? Have a joke about it! Procurement’s here, put the vodka away! It’s pre-pitch, get the SP on them, LinkingIn with them, have that dialogue. But for me, it’s more important post pitch. The ones where you can give them a ring afterwards. I think agencies have got better at it. I think there’s still room for improvement, have that quarterly dialogue and have something where they can come out and understand how we do our process for X, it’s valuable.
Jenny: I absolutely love that, and that's invaluable for agencies. I think it's great advice, thank you. I suppose, also, it's in the agency's interest, isn't it? If they did have those quarterly catch ups, it's also like a forum to be able to tell them what else is going on with their agency. What other services perhaps they got. Maybe they've made an acquisition and they have more things to offer.
Tina: With my clients I do a quarterly review programme. And we also do an agency review programme where we score each other as well. In the quarterly commercials we’ve got a fixed agenda and it’s ‘what’s new with you and what’s new with us?’. One of my clients has been bought by somebody, so we talk about that. In the meantime, the agency’s actually been merged with another agency. I think you’re exactly right, Jenny, what’s new, let’s look at the scope, let’s look at the resource, what’s proactive? It just gives you that regular dialogue.
Jenny: Absolutely. Like you said at the beginning, these people that are now may be on the C suite, the chief procurement officers, they're going to know what's going on at a business level, aren't they? So that their whole procurement team are gonna be updated on that? So it's a regular forum that agencies can have with their procurement contact to understand what's going on with the business, what are the business challenges, what's important. What are the strategic imperatives this year? And then they could look more forward thinking to think, how are we going to develop our services in order for us to tackle those challenges for the client.
Tina: Totally agree? While I think agencies shouldn’t worry about consultancies because they haven’t made the impact that everyone was worried about 18 months years ago, they are very good at that C-Suite relationship. And agencies do fall down on that. It’s easy to do. You’ve got a client that you’ve had for two, three, four years. People move but it doesn't take much to pick up the phone or have a cup of coffee. And to have that regular dialogue.
Jenny: Again, fantastic advice. Great reminder for agency account managers to think about that. I've been talking about this for a long time because obviously you know this, that in the landscape the Accentures of this world are becoming a hugely inquisitive aren’t they?. They're acquiring the creative arms. So I kind of thought to myself, it's only a matter of time before these highly skilled, more business consultancy type leads in management consultants are going to shine and be able to do the whole spectrum of services. Not just business consultancy, but all the way through to creative strategy concepts, you know, and all the tactics. So they haven't made the impact that you expected them to, though that's interesting. Why do you think. Can you give us an example?
Tina: I can’t name names, but in terms of presenting in pitches, the overall package has been really difficult to fulfill or become cost-prohibitive. Don’t forget, consultancy is a lot more expensive than agencies. I do think agencies have reacted, agencies have sharpened their pencil a bit in terms of senior people. In terms of strategic insight, planning. I think in a way it’s helped, it has made many agencies step up to the table a bit more. I think agencies are very inward looking. Sometimes they should be more externally focussed. I do think the reason we haven’t seen such a big impact over here in the UK is that agencies have stepped up as well and thought, let’s get more at the table with the C-Suite.
Jenny: It's interesting because I think we were at the same conference. The IPA conference when Lisa Thomas spoke. Remember, she's head of Brand for Virgin, but she also interestingly she used to work for MC Saatchi. Like you, she's got two sides of the coin, and I just remember that moment when she almost, like, turned to the audience and she waved her finger because she’s sat in boardrooms now and she said, ‘we're not talking about creative in boardrooms. We're talking business outcomes and business challenges and business. If you want to see on the table, you need to speak our language’. And so I thought it was brilliant. I've quoted that quote so many times. That is
Tina: That’s the role of account managers. That’s why the IPA paper missed a bit of a trick there in terms of, exactly Jenny, that's exactly what Lisa said. Step up, know your numbers go on some commercial courses, go on a negotiation course. I recently did Mark Ritson’s Mini MBA
Jenny: How’s that going?
Tina: It was really good. I didn’t do the exam unfortunately as I was so busy but from a procurement point of view, and even though I’ve got 25 years experience, to learn from Mark and understand the strategic side of marketing. Obviously we see the tactical end, so if account people could sharpen that finance. Go and spend time with the client, sit in those boardroom meetings and that’s exactly what account management’s role is, to translate that back to their organisation. To say look, they’re really struggling because of Covid, because of supply and demand. For me that’s why account management has a great role to play. I’m not sure what that procurement person from the IPA report has been doing, have they been on planet Mars?
Jenny: I think you mentioned this at the beginning. You said, I know procurement have a bit of a bad rap sometimes, and I suppose it's, you know, comments like that that have been taken out of context or highlighted in a place where they perhaps shouldn't. It's a shame, actually, because you're right and procurement are the ones that understand that commercial side of the business, isn't it? I think this is really valuable for agency account managers to hear. I really do, because you're absolutely spot on. I mean, do you have any other advice other than the stuff that you mentioned already about, you know, talking strategy, thinking about the commercials, the business acumen that you need to acquire, Perhaps looking at one of those, you know, the Mark Ritson. Do you recommend the Mini MBA?
Tina: It’s the Mini MBA in Marketing. It’s very good from a marketing point of view, but obviously not money-wise. It's definitely worth looking at investing in training. CIPs, our trade body, we’ve worked on guides with the IPA that will be launching in September 2020. Look out for those. For me, it’s commerciality, invest in understanding a client’s business and how to work with more senior people and be credible. Be deeper with your clients, knowledge and, we call it, stakeholder management. To be able to deal with your internal stakeholders is one thing, but to be able to speak boardroom language, it’s a different thing.
Jenny: I echo this as well. It's all about having a relationship development strategy and also confidence. You know, I train account managers, account directors, and one of the things that keeps coming up is this lack of confidence. So there's no wonder that they're not having a dialogue at that level. And there's lots of factors involved in that. It’s knowledge of the client's business, their industry, what's changing, trends, but also and I love your view on this. Many account managers, account directors have this dual function. They're half kind of project, managing the projects on also half being expected to be the ambassador for the agency and develop and grow that piece of business, have that commercial point of view and also look at what's changing on the client side in terms of their business. And often it's conflicted because the project management side of their role, you know, they're inundated with just getting stuff done. And it goes probably to the detriment of spending time, understanding the client and nurturing the client and looking further ahead. So, Tina, this has been fantastic. Really, really brilliant. I'm very conscious of your time, Tina, where can people reach you? And who would you like to be contacted by? If anyone hears for anything you've said which has been absolute gold and they want to talk further with you.
Tina: Thank you, Jenny, that's very kind. There’s my website which is www.tinafegent.com and you’ll find my contact details. As Jenny said, I’m on LinkedIn a bit, sometimes on Twitter. I'm happy, I don’t want to open the floodgates to a load of agencies, but I'm always happy to have an approach from an agency and, when I've got time, to have a chat. It’s a hard market out there, I think, but I’ve enjoyed our chat, Jenny, and hopefully it’s given your listeners some perspective from the role of the procurement person.
Jenny: It really, really has. It truly has. Thank you so much, Tina. Really appreciate your time. Thank you.
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