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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
277. Deeper Yet Into The Weeds | Pageau & Vervaeke
Aug 8, 2022
02:31:11
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Quick takeaways
- Engagement with beauty enables us to perceive the connection between the world and the transcendentals.
- Love opens us up to a broader perspective, allowing us to consider the well-being of our future selves and others.
- Goodness involves a system of prioritizing perceptions and actions based on values, extending beyond ethics.
- Aligning our understanding of truth with the nature of the world establishes a profound connection with the essence of existence.
- The interdependence of narrative, nomological order, and self-transcendence is crucial for understanding reality.
- The narrative context and meaning give significance to the laws represented by the Ten Commandments.
Deep dives
The Primacy of Beauty: Seeing Beyond Superficial Appearances
Beauty holds a primacy as it allows us to see beyond our shallow aesthetic judgments. It enables us to look past appearances and perceive the connection between the world and the transcendentals. Beauty, in its transformative nature, reveals reality and invites us to see through to the deeper meaning and significance of existence. By engaging with beauty, we transcend our egocentric perspectives and align our perceptions with the core principles of truth, goodness, and love.
Love as a Catalyst for Transcendence
Love is a primary force that elevates us beyond self-orientation. It is the gateway to perceiving the world beyond narrow self-interest. Love opens us up to a broader perspective, allowing us to consider the well-being of our future selves and others. By cultivating a genuine love and care for ourselves and others, we enhance our capacity to align appearances with reality and experience authentic beauty.
The Relationship between Goodness and Ethics
The concept of goodness should not be reduced solely to ethical considerations. Instead, goodness is better understood as a broader form of value hierarchy that encompasses ethics but extends beyond it. Goodness involves a system of prioritizing perceptions and actions based on values. By recognizing the importance of ethical virtues and aligning our actions with goodness, we can experience the transformative power of truth, beauty, and love.
Intelligibility's Connection to Reality
Intelligibility and reality must be wedded together, with the structures of intelligibility conforming to and corresponding with reality. There must be a coherence and harmony between our understanding of truth and the actual nature of the world. By embracing intelligibility and seeking to align our perceptions with reality, we can establish a more profound understanding of the transcendentals and experience a deeper connection with the essence of existence.
The interdependence of narrative, nomological order, and self-transcendence
The main argument revolves around the interdependence of narrative, nomological order, and self-transcendence. The narrative provides a way for us to engage with the structure of values, while the nomological order offers a set of rules that make sense of the world. The self-transcendence dimension allows us to override narrative bias and recognize differences. These three dimensions are mutually necessary for understanding reality and cannot be reduced to one another.
The relationship between narrative and the Ten Commandments
The podcast explores the relationship between the narrative and the Ten Commandments. While the Ten Commandments represent a set of laws, they are embedded within a larger narrative of the Israelites leaving Egypt and finding themselves in the desert. The narrative gives context and meaning to the laws, highlighting the interplay between narrative and normological order.
The role of storytelling in science
The discussion touches upon the role of storytelling in science. While science aims to uncover universal facts and establish a nomological order, storytelling plays a crucial role in relating and communicating scientific findings. Narrative frameworks help scientists abstract relevant facts and make them relatable by embedding them in stories or explanations.
The connection between narrative and teleology
The connection between narrative and teleology is also emphasized. Narrative provides a sense of purpose and direction by mapping out a teleological order, which is then reflected in the normological rules and laws. The narrative and teleology work in conjunction to guide human action and understanding of the world.
The Relationship between Logos, Narrative, and Embodiment
The discussion delves into the relationship between the logos, narrative, and embodiment. While the logos is seen as a force that unites narratives and the nomological order, it is emphasized that the logos itself is not a narrative. Instead, it is described as an embodied pattern that underlies the intelligibility of the world. The importance of narrative in conveying intelligibility and the significance of embodiment in understanding the logos are acknowledged. It is suggested that the logos can be accessed through parallel hierarchies of value represented in narratives and nomological descriptions.
The Role of Neo-Platonism and the Silk Road
The significance of neo-platonism is explored as a philosophical framework that enables reciprocal reconstruction between different civilizations and traditions. Neo-platonism is seen as a unifying method that allows deep dialogue between Christianity, Islam, science, and other belief systems. The concept of the Silk Road is used as a metaphor to represent the intellectual exchange and dialogue between the East and the West, highlighting the potential for diverse perspectives to interact and enrich one another.
The Relationship between Science, Narrative, and the Logos
The discussion touches on the relationship between science, narrative, and the logos. It is acknowledged that science has implicitly incorporated neo-platonic principles, and the logos is seen as a critical factor in intelligibility and relevance realization. However, the distinction is made that the logos itself is not a narrative, and that privileging narrative too much can lead to an overemphasis on one form of knowing. The importance of embodying the logos and the interconnectedness between science, spirituality, and narrative is stressed as a way to address the meaning crisis and facilitate a deeper understanding of reality.
33.
The Narrative and the Scientific Description Mutually Require Each Other, Okay?
3min
43.
Is It the Case That We Abstract Out From Scientific Truths Towards the Universal?
2min
This was the first time that Jonathan Pagaeu, John Vervaeke, and Jordan Peterson all sat down together in person. Recorded in Dr. Peterson’s home, and prominently featuring many of Kwakwakaʼwakw carver Charles Joseph’s incredible statues and carvings, this recording may require a few complete watchthroughs. The conversation was created to intentionally dive deep into the areas of systems of perception and their impacts on our abilities to prioritize, the nature of YHWH (Judeo-Christian God), and the exploration of the True, the Good, and the Beautiful. This conversation is only the beginning of many more conversations to have between these three and on these topics. Please comment any insights that you have derived from this video, my team will be paying close attention to the progress on these ideas.
Jonathan Pageau is a symbolic thinker, YouTuber, and class carver of orthodox icons. Jordan and Jonathan have an ongoing dialogue surrounding Judeo-Christian narrative, reality, and symbolism among many other topics.
John Vervaeke is an Assistant Professor in Cognitive Psychology and Cognitive Science at the University of Toronto. His work constructs a bridge between science and spirituality in order to understand the experience of meaningfulness and the cultivation of wisdom so as to afford awakening from the meaning crisis.
If you want to hear the rest of my conversation, please go to https://www.dailywire.com/watch and become a member today. Thanks.
This episode is sponsored by Elysium health. Visit: http://explorematter.com/jordan
Check out Jonathan Pageau’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtCTSf3UwRU14nYWr_xm-dQ
https://thesymbolicworld.com
(speaking)
https://pageaucarvings.com
(carving)
https://orthodoxartsjournal.org
(writing)
Watch more from John Vervaeke: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
—Links—
Jordan Peterson Commencement Address: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvHjhtM8D7w&t=368s&ab_channel=HillsdaleCollege
Imprimis subscribe: https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/free-lifetime-subscription-to-imprimis/
Online Course sign up: online.hillsdale.edu
Four Pillars: Educating for America (Imprimis): https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/four-pillars-educating-america/
Faith and Reason are Mutually Reinforcing (Imprimis): https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/faith-reason-mutually-reinforcing/
Civil Rights in American History Online Course: https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/civil-rights-in-american-history
Theology 101: The Western Theological Tradition Online Course: https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/theology-101
Introduction to Western Philosophy Online Course: https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/introduction-to-western-philosophy
Introduction to Aristotle’s Ethics: How to Lead a Good Life Online Course: https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/aristotles-ethics
Constitution 101 Online Course: www.hillsdale.edu/con101
Winston Churchill and Statesmanship: https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/winston-churchill-and-statesmanship
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