In the past few weeks, Bari has done two episodes on religion—one asking, “Do we need a religious revival?,” and then a follow-up conversation with Ross Douthat asking how people who grew up in the secular West can actually find faith.

Today, we have the last installment of this intellectual and religious inquiry, and we are asking a new question: What is the role of religion as a political force in this country?

Our guest today, Jonathan Rauch, says: “Christianity is a load-bearing wall of American civic life.” In other words, the success of liberal democracy depends on a healthy Christianity to support it—and if Christianity falters, our American project will falter too. We get into why that is in this conversation.

It’s a fascinating position for a person who happens to be an atheist, Jewish, gay man.

And Jonathan doesn’t just say we need to embrace Christianity, he goes a step further. He says that Christians need to look in the mirror and reconsider how Jesus would approach American politics today.

Jonathan is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, and he just wrote Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy.

Bari asks him about the breakdown of religion. She asks about the religious and political forces that have shaped our present moment, like MAGA, the evangelical movement, and their marriage to President Donald Trump. And, she asks about the rise of Christian nationalism and the threat it poses.

And, most importantly, she asks how we can restore health in political life.

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