Jerry Ratcliffe interviews Philip Atiba Goff, an expert in racial bias and discrimination. They discuss the concept of implicit bias and its impact on policing, as well as the limitations of current training programs. Goff emphasizes the importance of shifting the focus from individual character to situational factors when addressing racial disparities in policing. He also highlights the need for better measurement of the consequences of policing practices and the importance of including marginalized communities in decision-making processes. The conversation touches on the challenges of discussing race in America and the role of criminology in addressing racial inequities.