Here’s the video of our conversation:

A rough summary of our conversation:

The conversation covered a broad spectrum of topics, touching on shared intellectual influences, critiques of past and current socio-political movements, and the potential for new forms of community organization and governance. Michel Bauwens shared his thoughts on the evolution of his ideas, particularly around commons-based practices, and explored historical patterns of societal collapse and renewal. The discussion also delved into critiques of identity politics, the challenges of modern capitalism, and the potential of decentralized technologies like blockchain to support new forms of social organization.

Key Topics Discussed:

* Shared Influences and Intellectual Background:

* We noted common influences, such as Thomas Berry and Jorge Ferrer, with Bauwens also mentioning his early interest in the California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS).

* Bauwens reflected on his past admiration for Wilber and the intellectual property dispute that led to their falling out.

* Despite this, Bauwens acknowledged Wilber’s early insights (“mean green meme”) but noted the limitations and issues within the Integral movement, particularly in how it dealt with criticism and internal politics.

* Marxism and its Evolution:

* Bauwens discussed his Marxist background, noting how it still influences his thinking, particularly in terms of class analysis and the potential for societal change.

* He acknowledged the moral ambitions of Marxism while critiquing its historical implementations, particularly the pitfalls of revolutionary movements that often lead to new forms of elitism.

* Social and Political Change:

* We discussed the failures of recent progressive movements, particularly the Democratic Party in the U.S., and the role of Bernie Sanders as a left-wing populist whose campaigns were sabotaged by the party establishment.

* We both expressed disillusionment with electoral politics and the need for deeper, more fundamental change, with Bauwens introducing his theory of “jurisdictional alliances” and the idea of top-middle-bottom coalitions to create real change.

* Commons and Decentralized Systems:

* Bauwens outlined his vision for a new civilization model based on the commons, where local, bioregional production is combined with global, translocal cooperation.

* He introduced the concept of “cosmo-localism,” where everything heavy (like production) is local, and everything light (like knowledge) is shared globally, supported by decentralized technologies such as blockchain and DAOs (Decentralized Autonomous Organizations).

* Critique of Identity Politics:

* Bauwens offered a critique of identity politics, describing it as a tool used by the elite to divide and control, particularly in how it has been weaponized against more traditional class-based movements.

* He argued that the focus on identity over structural economic issues has weakened the left, making it less effective in addressing the real challenges facing society.

* Historical Patterns and Future Projections:

* The conversation touched on historical cycles of societal collapse and renewal, with Bauwens drawing on the work of macro-historians like Spengler, Toynbee, and Sorokin to analyze current global trends.

* Bauwens suggested that we might be heading towards a “dark age” due to the failures of current institutions and the exhaustion of existing socio-economic models, but also noted the potential for new forms of community and governance to emerge from this collapse.

* The Role of Technology and the Internet:

* Bauwens highlighted the transformative potential of the internet and decentralized technologies in creating new forms of social organization that could support a more sustainable and equitable society.

* He contrasted this with the historical limitations of past civilizations, which lacked the communication technologies needed to navigate their declines.

* Personal and Social Resilience:

* The conversation ended on a personal note, with Bauwens sharing his experiences living in a community in Chiang Mai, Thailand, which operates on principles of commoning and gifting within an extended family structure.

* He emphasized the importance of rebuilding social fabrics and communities around shared values and mutual support, particularly in the face of potential societal breakdowns.

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