A good-humored conversation between Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins
Dec 19, 2023
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Michael Shermer, science writer and executive director of The Skeptics Society, discusses religious loyalty, defining a true religion, and polygamy. They also explore excommunication, belief in God, patterns in pi, and the correlation between periodical cicadas and prime numbers. The podcast touches on ayahuasca, induced spiritual experiences, shifting moral values, the fear of eternity, evolution without interspecies reproduction, tribalism, global culture, and the concept of illusion in consciousness.
Moral progress is not tied to religious beliefs but reflects the changing attitudes of society as a whole.
Atheists find purpose and fulfillment in personal relationships, accomplishments, and contributing to society.
Morality is shaped by various influences, not solely dependent on religious beliefs.
Scientific reasoning can provide insights into moral issues and guide decision-making for moral progress based on evidence, reason, and empathy.
Deep dives
The Shifting Moral Zeitgeist
The shifting moral zeitgeist is a phenomenon observed through history where societal morals and values change over time. What was considered acceptable or moral in one century may be seen as unacceptable in another. This shift is driven by various factors such as conversations, legal decisions, media, and cultural influences. For instance, attitudes towards slavery, gender equality, and LGBTQ rights have evolved significantly over time. This indicates that moral progress is not tied to religious beliefs, but rather a reflection of the changing attitudes of society as a whole.
Finding Meaning Without a Higher Power
The question of finding meaning in life without a belief in God arises frequently. However, the idea that life lacks meaning without a higher power is unfounded. Many atheists find purpose and fulfillment in various aspects of life, such as personal relationships, accomplishments, personal growth, making a positive impact on others, and contributing to society. The absence of a belief in God does not diminish the richness and value of life, as there are countless opportunities for personal growth, happiness, and fulfillment outside of religious frameworks.
Moral Frameworks Beyond Religion
Religion is often seen as the primary source of moral frameworks. However, morality is not solely dependent on religious beliefs. Morals are shaped by various influences, including cultural norms, social development, personal experiences, empathy, ethical reasoning, and societal progress. Atheists, like religious individuals, derive their moral principles through the same processes and sources available to all individuals. The shifting moral zeitgeist observed throughout history demonstrates that moral values evolve with changes in society and are not exclusively dictated by religious doctrines.
Scientific Reasoning and Morality
While some argue that science and morality should be separated, scientific reasoning can provide insights into moral issues. By starting with foundational principles, such as the notion that suffering is undesirable, scientific reasoning can be applied to analyze ethical dilemmas and guide decision-making. Utilizing scientific and logical principles can help shape moral frameworks that promote well-being, minimize harm, and foster fairness and compassion. This approach allows for moral progress based on evidence, reason, and empathy while acknowledging the complexities of ethical questions.
The importance of embracing scientific principles in moral philosophy
Scientific principles should not be disregarded when discussing difficult moral questions, such as the ethics of birth or moral dilemmas like the trolley problem. These scientific principles are essential for addressing the complexities of moral philosophy, regardless of one's religious beliefs. It is crucial to confront these challenges head-on and not shy away from using scientific principles to navigate moral decision-making.
The complexities of abortion and personhood
The abortion debate is multifaceted, with arguments revolving around the ethics of taking a potential human life. However, drawing a clear line on personhood proves to be challenging. Factors such as legal definitions and the development of a fetus gradually complicate the issue. The debate also highlights the inconsistency between opposing abortion but not advocating for animal rights, considering animals' capacity for suffering. The discussion surrounding personhood necessitates ongoing exploration, recognizing the evolving nature of human development and the ethical implications.
The future of artificial intelligence and its potential impact on humanity
Speculation about the consequences of artificial intelligence (AI) is a topic of interest. Some propose that an AI-dominated future might render humans obsolete, while others argue that the benefits of AI can enhance human existence. Matt Tegmark's book 'Life 2.0' delves into the rapid potential progress of AI, acknowledging both the capacity for human advancement and the dangers it may pose. Although the specifics remain uncertain, the impact of AI on society should be approached with cautious optimism, considering the potential benefits as well as the need to ensure human wellbeing as technology advances.
Michael Shermer is an American science writer, historian of science, and executive director of The Skeptics Society. He and I spoke about God, reason, morality, science and the future, in a good-humored discussion in Berlin, 2018, under the auspices of the German branch of the Richard Dawkins Foundation.
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