Summer rewind: What does Canada do with excess energy? How is it stored today and how will it be stored as the energy industry evolves? Justin Rangooni, CEO of Energy Storage Canada, shares how energy storage supports a sustainable future for Canadians—from enhanced flexibility to affordability, large-scale grids to individual consumer needs. Listen to episode 152 of thinkenergy to learn about ongoing projects and challenges facing the energy storage sector in Canada.

Related links

● Justin Rangooni on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/

● Energy Storage Canada: https://www.energystoragecanada.org/

● TC Energy Pump Storage Project: https://www.tcenergy.com/operations/power/pumped-storage-project/

● From Small to Mighty report: https://energyontario.ca/Files/OEA_ESC_From_Small_to_Mighty_Dec_2024.pdf

● Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.

Trevor Freeman 00:55

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydroottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. We tend to take for granted that when we flick that light switch on, or we plug in our coffee maker or EV, electricity is there to do what we want it to do. It will light up the room or make our coffee or charge our car or whatever the case may be. But let's take a minute to reflect on the engineering marvel that makes that a reality. The traditional power grid is set up as a one way on demand system, meaning, when you need those electrons for your morning cup of coffee somewhere else, that same amount of electricity needs to be generated pretty much simultaneously. Multiply that one use case by hundreds of millions or likely even billions of devices needing power at any given time, and you can appreciate the challenge. Traditionally, power grids don't store electricity. They need to make sure they're generating enough power for the load that's required at any given time. And as many generation sources can't be instantaneously turned on or off. This requires forecasting, also known as informed guessing, of what the load might be at any given time to make sure that the generation resources needed are up and running. Some forms of generation require a few minutes to turn on and off. Some require a few days or even weeks. In the case of nuclear generation, for example, and others like solar or wind are dependent on weather conditions. So all of this means that often there is some excess generation that needs to go somewhere, and that somewhere is traditionally a neighboring jurisdiction, who will buy that excess power at a pretty low rate. So all that I've described above, while it is an engineering marvel, is a rather inflexible system. The good news is that this is the power grid of yesterday. Well, today, a little bit as well. The grid of tomorrow is shaping up to be much more flexible in terms of when and where we generate and use electricity, and a major tool that will help us get to that state is energy storage. Energy Storage means things that let us generate electricity at a certain point in time, such as when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, or when not a lot of people are using grid electricity, like the middle of the night, but save it to be used later, when the conditions are opposite to those I just mentioned. This opens up loads of possibilities and can help with grid flexibility, for sure, but also other things like customer affordability. So imagine being able to pull cheaper off peak electricity from the grid and use it later when rates are higher during peak times, instead of buying that more expensive power. It supports things like resiliency, so using stored electricity during an outage, for example, and it also lets utilities and system operators pull on different resources on the grid at different times, instead of only having generation to pull from. Energy storage can take many forms, which we'll get into in today's conversation, but certainly, batteries are the ones that we are most familiar with. We're seeing more and more applications for this technology, from home battery systems to large scale Grid applications. In fact, here in Ontario, the Independent System Operator or IESO is working through their long term or LT one RFP, which is looking to procure capacity, including battery storage for grid needs. But some of these projects are facing hurdles, such as opposition from community. Members opposed to project developments in their area over concerns about what those projects mean with the need for more energy storage of all sizes on our grid. I thought this would be a good time to dig into this growing sector and understand it a little bit better. And the perfect person to help us do that is actually someone who's been on the show twice before, Justin Rangoon, he the president and CEO of energy storage Canada. So even though Justin's been on before, I think given what's happening in the news and the evolving sector that he represents, it's great to have him back to talk through some of this stuff together. So energy storage Canada, or ESC is the National Trade Association that's dedicated to advancing Canada's energy storage sector. It's a non profit organization that was established in 2016 and has a diverse membership of more than 85 members, from technology providers to project developers, power generators, utilities like Hydro Ottawa, engineering firms, etc, etc. Justin in particular, is the President and CEO of energy storage Canada, and is a lawyer with more than a decade of experience in Canada's energy sector, specializing in policy and government relations. He's been the executive director since 2019 and has facilitated significant growth within ESC membership, staff, conference offerings, et cetera, to kind of match the pace of accelerated growth in the storage sector. So it's really great to have Justin here today to talk through this with us. Justin Rangooni, welcome to the show. Great to be here again. Thanks for having me. Yeah, actually, that's a great correction or clarification. Welcome back to the show. So I think you're actually the first three Pete guests that we've had on the think energy podcast you've been on twice before, both times with my predecessor, Dan. So great for us to chat for the first time, but welcome back to Think energy for the third time.

Justin Rangooni 06:54

Oh, thank you. It's always good to have the Triple Crown, right? I'm happy to wear it

Trevor Freeman 06:59

and the first one too. So why don't we start right off the bat, Justin, if you don't mind, remind our listeners about the important role that energy storage can and will play for both customer needs as well as for grid management.

Justin Rangooni 07:16

Okay, so the best way to think of it is, there's an analogy that one of our members had always said, and we continue to use it when we talk about energy storage. And the great things that can do is that it's like bacon. It makes everything better. I don't eat bacon, but I take I understand the concept, and what that means is, if you look at from a grid management point of view, is that we have all in Ontario, we're lucky to have a pretty clean grid, if it's nuclear power, or it's water power, or it's intermittent generation like wind and solar and even some gas too, which is which is near zero carbon or don't have coal. So it's a clean grid, and energy storage can make that better in the sense that it will optimize those generation assets so we're not wasting it. So those days before we would hear about when energy is needed but the wind's not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or we don't need the energy and we have to spill water, or, you know, we may have to power down a ramp, down a bit of the nuclear ramp or the natural gas units. Now energy storage can make sure we don't waste that now we can collect that power when it's done, when it's when it's being done, when it's being made, and we're holding it for when it's needed. And from a grid management that is the real key. That is the game changer that energy storage provides. And if we break it down, to the customer themselves. You know, you're trying to think of now, not just helping keep the lights on. We're also talking about your rates now in terms of now we can kind of defer those investments in terms of more generation, because now you have energy storage that's getting more out of it. We're also talking from the distribution side about pools and wires. Maybe you don't you can defer those investments a little longer with more distributed, connected energy storage. So now the customer is starting to see the benefits of energy storage in their rates and in their electricity bill. And look, I just got an electric car. They're really excited about it, and I can see the possibilities of that car being a battery for my home, for my use, which, again, now maybe that's still a bit down the road with B to G and using it to power a residential energy storage unit in my house, but the possibilities are really endless. So this is really the exciting thing about energy storage, from a Grid Manager down to the customer,

Trevor Freeman 09:35

yeah, and I think it's important to think about the different contexts that energy storage can play, or the different roles that it can play for our individual customers, a homeowner, there's a role for storage there, and you get some of those benefits that you just mentioned, but then we can scale that all the way up to the grid level. And you know, us in the utility space also have some things that we can do with. Energy Storage, and like you said, we can manage things a little bit better. We don't have to waste that energy. We can generate it when it's cheap and hold on to it and use it when it's maybe a bit more difficult in those peak periods. So lots of different uses. Thanks for laying that out for us. Now we hear a lot about, you know, decentralization and community-based energy systems, kind of more control at the community level when it comes to energy what's the role of energy storage in systems like that?

Justin Rangooni 10:32

Well, I think that's energy storage can really make that a reality. Now, again, I think I'll go back to my example having an electric car. It seems like more getting closer to being more a prosumer than just a consumer now. So I can see the possibilities of using electric vehicle you could and then you start to pair that with other kind of your thermostat or your other smart technologies in your home. So now, when we're talking about decentralizing community based energy systems, the consumer, the utility, the system operator, you're all able to get in the space of playing with the technologies. And that's really again, where it gets kind of exciting that everyone's playing a role. There's different possibilities to use, and we think energy storage is the key to doing that, because it can store that energy when it's not needed, and you can use it when it's needed. And if the technology evolution continues, eventually, the homeowner, the business owner, can start to use that. I can use buy power from the cars. I can use my power that I'm generating myself or from the distribution grid. And now I can start to play with it and use it store overnight when rates are low or when there's excess supply. I could store that energy and use it when it's needed during the day. So really exciting times, and that's why we think energy storage is key to any decentralized or community based energy systems.

Trevor Freeman 11:51

Yeah, it really unlocks that ability to push control into the hands of the end user, whether that's the homeowner or the business owner. The community, kind of pushes it downstream into their hands. So as I mentioned up top, you've been on the show before. I think the last time was 2021 which, I mean, doesn't seem like that long ago, in some sense, and also seems like decades ago. What has changed in the world of energy storage since the last time you were on the show? Oh,

Justin Rangooni 12:20

oh, how much has changed? Geez, like that does seem like a very long time ago. I think the Toronto Raptors were only two years coming out of an NBA championship, and we thought maybe we'll get some more, get some more long playoff runs. And that's right, still living the high on that. That's right, or still living the high back then? Well, since 2021 like, a massive amount has changed in the sector. You know, we're seeing incredible growth across Canada. I think when we first chatted back then, you know, we were talking about the energy storage potential, specifically in Ontario. And since that time, we've seen one of the largest procurements for energy storage technologies, and really globally, take place in Ontario, with over 3000 megawatts of contract contracts awarded in that time, and we're looking at more in subsequent rounds of procurements for the rest of the decade, including one of the first of the kind procurements focused on long lead time or long duration energy storage technologies, which does get very interesting, because now you're looking just beyond batteries, or just beyond lithium batteries. Now you're looking at things that can store power, six, 812, hours, days, weeks, even seasons. If you really think about it, it's really exciting. We've seen the growth in Ontario. And it's not just there. You look across the country, Nova Scotia, since that time, announced 350 megawatt battery energy storage projects. Alberta already has over 100 megawatts providing value and what their market design consultation is going on now we expect to see a lot more. BC is a 600 megawatt target. Saskatchewan installed a 50 megawatt desk system. And you're looking at projects big and small, transmission, connected, dx connected, being announced, implemented, you know, across the country, and just more as we speak.

Trevor Freeman 13:59

Yeah. So those long lead was just maybe for my own curiosity. Everybody's probably pretty familiar with battery technology, and if you're not, it's really the same concept as the batteries you put in, I don't know, your remote control, or in your phone or your car. Now, scaled up, what are some of those technologies as that energy storage technology that provides that long duration storage time that you were just mentioning. So

Justin Rangooni 14:22

you're looking at possibly different battery chemistries, like zinc, vanadium, for instance, like, again, different elements critical minerals that are found that can actually do their technological process, and what it can hold, can hold that energy for even longer. So you're looking at different battery chemistries. You're also looking for different methods of energy storage, like compressed air. Wow, which, again, there's a Canadian company which is one of our members of hydro store, and is doing great work getting ready for that in other parts of the world, where it's basically taking air, compressing it into underground caverns, saving that energy potential, and then releasing it to. Create electricity when it's needed, then you have thermal storage. And again, some Canadian companies are really looking in and on that one in terms of using, you know, heating molten salts or molten rocks for thermal storage, and eating that, that energy potential, and using and keeping it there and then using it for when it's needed. And I go think back to the batteries. There's, there's easing, which is, which is an Ontario company based out of Etobicoke that's looking at zinc based batteries for that long duration, and not to mention even pump storage, which has been around for decades. And we heard a recent announcement of moving the ball forward on TC energy's pump storage project in medieval again, that's a long duration energy storage project, again, doing more, doing it more than the four hour lithium batteries, but you get all those options available for a system operator then, then it gets really interesting that they can see what they need and what time and what storage technology to to rely on.

Trevor Freeman 15:55

Yeah. So for our listeners, I mean, you might be familiar with hydro generation, you take water that's flowing downhill, whether it's a waterfall or just a river, and use that momentum to turn a turbine. Pumped Storage would be taking that that water, actually pumping it uphill and holding it there and then when you want to generate electricity, letting it flow down through the turbine, and just repeating that process over and over again. So thanks. Thanks for sharing that with us. I think it's important to recognize that like any technology, things kind of move forward. They iterate, they improve, and as we see more adoption that technology, it speeds up the process of that iteration, and we see jumps forward in the technology and its efficiency. So we've talked about the importance for grid management, for cost, sort of reliability, but there are folks out there whose main driver is reducing their carbon footprint. So understanding that energy use often has a carbon aspect to it, how can energy storage help, whether that's a business or an industry, help them reduce their carbon

Justin Rangooni 17:01

footprint? That's a great question. And what energy storage can do is, traditionally, before energy storage technologies started to mature and be more economically viable, like we're seeing right now, a lot of companies, a lot of new communities and had a lot of access to electricity, reliable electricity would use diesel generation as backup. So that's dirtier, that's like, it's not good for the environment. But now energy storage can provide that different option. Now you can install an energy storage system, smaller battery, for instance, to provide that backup system, if that's what the reason you need it. But again, because now you have that battery, well, it's not just there for backup. Now you can use it for helping smooth those peaks. A lot of industrial customers, especially Ontario too, are using behind what's called behind the meter energy storage to really help mitigate or manage that electricity use during peak times where they don't necessarily have to rely on the grid. They can use that battery that's installed. Again, low carbon footprint, if at all, you're just using the clean electricity that's on the grid to power that battery, and now you're using that battery and reducing the pressure that's on the grid during those peak periods. So not only decarbonization, you're applying reliability, and it's really good for affordability reasons, and so that's why you're seeing a lot of interest from the CNI type customers.

Trevor Freeman 18:19

Awesome. Are you seeing an increased pace in the adoption of energy storage? Are we kind of hitting that technology adoption curve where it's starting to pick up, or has it been relatively stable the last couple of

Justin Rangooni 18:32

years? Well, I would say we're still in the growth mode. And I always like to say that the sector is growing as us the association energy storage Canada's growing. Our members keep getting bigger. Our conference keeps getting bigger. The amount of submissions and work and like podcasts like this and getting questions about it continue to grow. And it goes with the sector that it's still growing. There are provinces like Ontario that are ahead of the game right now, but there's others that are coming now. Provinces like Saskatchewan is starting to look more at energy storage. So in a few years, they'll might be where Ontario is. So everyone's coming at different angles, and it's because of the technology advancements for energy storage. It's also the economics have started to go down, but it's also that they are seeing, we really need that reliable backup power, or reliable electricity to help keep the lights on while keeping rates low, and they're seeing energy storage, that's the option that they really need to look at. So we are way beyond now science experiments and pilot projects, but we're still not there where it's starting to plateau. I'm not sure when that happens. I hope maybe it never happens. Maybe it just keeps going. The technology will advance, but just keep happening. So it's a really fun kind of we're still riding the wave, I would say,

Trevor Freeman 19:41

Yeah, awesome. So you gave a bit of an outlook on the Canadian landscape. Are there other jurisdictions around the world that are real leaders when it comes to energy storage, you know, policy or adoption, or where they are, compared to Canada? You know

Justin Rangooni 19:55

what? We're starting to see that almost like everywhere. So obviously us, they lead. Their leaders, a lot of the ways, similar to us, their states have different priorities, different reasons for using it, just like we have our provinces. So states like California are have a lot of energy storage to make use of the intermittent solar generation that they have. Texas, also, maybe with solar, too, is using a lot of energy storage. But interesting, like the red state, the Republican state of Texas, is embracing innovative technologies like energy storage. Because, if you recall, during their winter storm they had they ran like their power was really short. So what did they look at going forward, saying, we need to make sure that we have a reliable system. And entered and they started to really embrace energy storage. So if it's decarbonization goals, if it's reliability goals, if it's a priority, goals are really driving a lot of the policy directions in the US, in Europe, in China, in Asia, China, Japan, Korea, they're all looking to install more energy storage. Again, it's not, it's not just like politically neutral. It's almost like country neutral, that you can put this anywhere. It's scalable, it's portable. And that's the beauty of energy storage.

Trevor Freeman 21:08

Yeah. I mean, it's a good reminder that when you get right down to it, when you cut through all the noise, good ideas, you know, kind of transcend politics and transcend political parties or rhetoric. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea and it's and it's going to happen. Okay? So I want to dive into a report that you kind of partnered with the Ontario Energy Association recently on the reports called from small to mighty unlocking ders to meet Ontario's electricity needs. So in this report, you outline a policy and regulatory framework that is aimed at enabling widespread adoption of DERs, which includes energy storage. Can you talk us through the main principles of that framework?

Justin Rangooni 21:52

Sure, and this is a great collaboration between the Ontario Energy Association trying to look at everyone's been talking about distributed energy storage or energy resources as kind of the next phase, the next piece of the energy puzzle in Ontario, and really for Canada. But we're looking Ontario here to meet our capacity needs that are being forecasted by the IEA. So, so what we thought working with the OEA was, can we come out with a paper that kind of looks at a roadmap to how do we really start to implement DERs, and that includes the utilities in Ontario, that includes the private entities and companies who want to install and own and help own and operate these DERs. So what this paper really looks at is, you know, it supports the development of an overarching policy and regulatory framework to enable DERs to play a much larger role in Ontario's electricity resource needs to support economic growth. So we're recommending that for Ontario government to issue policy directions to the Ontario Energy bowl or to the ISO to really enable LDCs like Hydro Ottawa led der procurements, as well as make grid modernization investments necessary to integrate and manage DERs, because we believe enabling an LDC led der procurement stream builds on LDCs existing responsibility and aligns with the development of future local markets for distribution services and really to play In that upcoming ISO wholesale market enhancements to better integrate DERs. So it's kind of bringing DERs into that game. So it's not just relying on centralized generation, which speaks really well to what energy storage kind of does. It's you can play in a wholesale market. It's a tech transmission connector. It could also be distribution connected. So that's why we consider it as a big piece of this der puzzle, distributed energy storage.

Trevor Freeman 23:43

Yeah. So I mean, you've outlined kind of that engagement piece and encouraging the regulatory bodies, our levels of government, to enable more DERs to happen. What does that engagement look like to support the industry's growth? How are you engaging with policymakers?

Justin Rangooni 24:00

Well, this is one of the great things of having a dedicated trade association, like energy stores. You know, we our team is growing. We're about six now. Across the country. We have a great we have fantastic 100, over 100 members, including Hydro Ottawa, who help us develop these policy submissions. And we have various working groups dedicated either Ontario wholesale or distributed energy storage or BC, Alberta, federal, Atlantic, Canada as well, what have you. And this is how we engage policy makers. We are able to tap into the expertise of our members and get their feedback and then bring that common consensus position focus exclusively on energy storage, nothing else. We do this 24 hours, seven days a week, 365, days a year, and we bring this to decision makers, if it's the regulator, the system operator and governments. So when we're talking about DERs, or we're talking about anything else, we're bringing that pure energy storage perspective that no one else can bring, and so they're seeing, i. Us is that trusted voice for the sector, and that's how we're really seeing a lot of momentum, and we are moving the ball down the

Trevor Freeman 25:06

field Great. What is the role that you guys play when it comes to fostering innovation and investment in new storage solutions? It's kind of that, you know, iterative process where technology improves over time. How are you and how is it energy storage Canada sort of helping speed that along. I

Justin Rangooni 25:25

think one of the best examples was with Ontario's procurement. They were really interested in long lead time, or long duration energy storage. So to help ISO get comfortable with the concept, because of our membership continues to grow, we have members who are dedicated to long energy storage. So we were able to facilitate introductions. We were able to group meetings, bring them to talk about their technologies to the ISO. And we'll do this again. We'll replicate this across the country as well. And it gets the ISO comfortable where they can ask all the questions that they could ever have about that into that company's LDS technology. And it gets them comfortable to start to frame the procurement so they'll know what technologies are available now, what technology may be available in, say, five years time, but then they can start applying so this is how we foster innovation and new storage solutions. We bring our members, facilitate those meetings with decision makers, and that really, can really start to get things moving

Trevor Freeman 26:18

when it comes to those new technology. So you mentioned, you know, having line of sight into what's coming five years down the road. I know earlier in the conversation, we were talking about, you know, different battery chemistries, different technologies. Is there anything coming up that isn't viable today or doesn't work today, or we may not be aware of today that you see as the next thing, the next technology that looks promising for deployment in the coming five or 10 years.

Justin Rangooni 26:45

You know what I would think a better way to look at it is, I think there's a knowledgeable a lot of the existing technologies, even if you look at lithium batteries, which is the most prevalent right now, where lithium batteries will be in five years, will probably look a lot different than it is now in terms of its efficiency, of how long, how many hours, it could be considered a long duration asset in five years time. And you can think of any of the other newer technologies that are coming now saying, oh, you know, I'm ready now. Or I need a long lead time. It might take me a year to have built in five years time that that, construction timeline could be shorter. So in this nascent sector, which is really brewing with so many great ideas and innovation, it's going to change year to year. Who knows by the end of the decade, how many different types of energy storage technologies are viable right now? That's what I'm really excited about. Where a system operator somewhere in this country will say, I need some capacity now. And now they could almost do it as the menu. I could pick the location I need it in, I need I need a certain duration, I need a certain size. And they can look at the menu of energy storage technologies that are really available now and start to kind of pick them off and say, Well, maybe, maybe this combination will really

Trevor Freeman 27:57

work. Yeah, having options really addresses multiple needs and different folks that have different drivers can sort of pick and choose what makes the most sense for them. Like any new technology or newer technology, it often starts with, you know, high capital costs. Those with the deep pockets are able to really engage in it first, but then over time, that comes down. So I'm curious, kind of, on the economics of it. Are there any trends that you're seeing when it comes to investment in energy storage projects in Canada that you're seeing over time? Yeah, I

Justin Rangooni 28:31

think there's a couple of buckets you can look at. You can look at, like strategic government support for programs. So when we first started, I think when we first talked, probably in 2021 where I just, kind of, I started in 2019 in this role, and we were talking to the federal government, saying, you grab all these great programs for other generation assets, why not create one for energy storage that can start to really help the project economics? So they created the smart renewable electricity Pathways Program. Then came the investment tax credits. So those are great examples of government support programs to really help this sector as it's growing. Will those be needed in five years plus time? Maybe not, maybe not. Maybe then it try, maybe it pivots to the newer energy storage technologies to help so but strategic government support is a is a great driver of it. You saw that in the US with their investment Reduction Act program, the RR, the IRA, which started to launch a lot of ITCs for different energy technologies, like energy store. And you saw the market boom. It really started making the economics better. And it just made helped on rates, where people were able to start looking at different innovative technologies. So strategic government support is key private sector engagement as well. And you're looking at that on the the AI start of things like the big data centers. They want to power their own clean supply of generation, and they're going to need energy storage to provide that 24/7 power. So they're willing to dole out money for. Are ESG goals as well. There's companies, hopefully still out there who still want to pursue ESG goals. So they're going to be looking at cleaner energy solutions and help and energy storage obviously plays a role in there. There's international collaborations with different governments, where Canada's part of talking about, you know, what can we do to share R and D to really advance different sorts of technologies. So really, it's government, it's the public, it's public together, and it's private altogether, doing this investment trends.

Trevor Freeman 30:30

Yeah, I mean, great answer, and you kind of answered my next question, or my follow up question, which is, what are some of the levers that we can lean on to encourage investment and to sort of speed up that investment. And I think you've hit the nail on the head there of the role that sort of government can play. We've talked on the show before about the role that government can play in sort of jump starting technology and using investments and tax credits to help get nascent technology off the ground until it's market ready. And we're seeing that in the in the storage space, the role of, you know, private entities with strong drivers, like data centers, for example, to come in and say, look, we've got a need here, and we see that energy storage can fulfill part of that need, and we're willing to pay in order to make that happen. And that also helps move the industry along and move the technology forward. So those are great examples. Thanks for highlighting that. Let's dive in a little bit into the technology. Here. One question that often comes up, maybe by by those more resistant to the technology, is, well, what about end of life? What about the environmental impacts when it comes to, you know, battery storage, in particular, the rare earth metals that go into that the mining required. Talk to us a little bit about some of the sustainability considerations regarding batteries, end of life. Can they be recycled? What? What happens? How are we mitigating that, that environmental impact?

Justin Rangooni 32:01

Yeah, I think these are excellent questions to ask, if you look on the recycling end of life, because we're at kind of the starting point of enabling energy storage. We're talking about batteries, specifically with these recent Ontario contracts. So these are 20 years contracts, so these batteries are going to last a while. You know? They might get replaced every 10 years. But what you're seeing is a lot of interesting Canadian companies. So there's a store, there's there BC, for example, is looking to be one of the leaders in not just EV, not just battery energy storage recycling, but electric vehicles and other recycling as well. So companies like tax and moment energy are taking you this opportunity while this window is open right now, see, how is it best to recycle these batteries? So either you're going to break them down to recycle them as much as you can in the most environmentally sensitive way, or can you now repurpose them? So a lot are looking at electric vehicle batteries that may come to life much sooner than battery energy storage system, let's say six to eight years, then repurposing those to say, well, we can get more life out of these. Could be battery, energy, standalone systems for another eight to 10 years. So there are recycling options, there's refurbishing options, and then there's just breaking down the components. And here is the opportunity for Canada to be a leader. You have this window. So there's interest, there's, there's, there's startup companies, and there's a lot of interest. So if Canada could do this, right, you know, we could be a leader in the recycling of EVs and battery energy storage.

Trevor Freeman 33:29

Yeah, it's like, it's the old. I don't know if it's a cliche or an adage, but somebody's problem is another person's opportunity, right? The challenge of a new technology, having a battery that gets to end of life at some point creates opportunity, whether that's in the recycling of it or and I'm glad you brought that up. It's one of my favorite examples or potential use cases of you know, an EV battery gets to the point where it can no longer provide the required power for moving a car down the highway at highway speeds, but it still can provide the kind of power that a house might need for backup power, for peak shaving or for reliability, whatever the case may be. So just because it's end of life in one use case doesn't necessarily mean it's end of life in another use case. I think that's a great example. I really like hearing that one. So one other thing that comes up when we talk about these maybe larger scale battery energy storage installations is safety, public safety. And there's a bit of a question mark, I think, in the public mind of, well, are these safe? Are we going to be at risk if we're near to one of these facilities? I think people are generally familiar with or even maybe even if they aren't familiar with it, they feel like they are when it comes to other types of generation, for example. But battery is a bit of an unknown. Are these battery installations? Are they safe? What are some of the safety considerations, and how is the industry addressing those?

Justin Rangooni 34:58

No and. And the short answer is, these are safe. As you mentioned at the outset, this technology is the same lithium batteries that are in your phone that you might put near your head when you're falling asleep, that you're plugging in overnight you're in your kitchen or your living room, what have you now, because they are bigger scale and the questions there they have to follow the correct procedures and installation. So what we rely on, obviously, our members adhere to the latest safety standards, the latest fire safety measures that have to take in the low risk that this might happen. What we also do, and we'll make a plug for these two members of ours who have been really helpful to us. It's Hillier Safety Group. Hillier and energy safety response group. So these are two members of ours who have especially with esrg. They are there. They are firefighters and ex firefighters who test batteries, energy storage system to and then take learnings and best practices from it. So we've encouraged and esrg goes out with our members. They go with the ISO. They do webinars that we host with them, speaking about how as a firefighter, they say, we test these things if they're installed correctly, if you're using the correct like a reputable company, and you ask about the mitigation measures these things are safe and in the low risk that these things might catch on fire by letting it burn out. It might not look so good sometimes, but that is actually the safest way. And there have been instances which I think were referenced and people talk about like in New York, and there was one in Los Angeles and and it, and they've done studies after this to say, Okay, what was the impact after nothing in the air, nothing in the soil, nothing in the water, it just burned itself out. Now, as the technology in the sector advances, you're going to see a lower risk of that. The numbers in the US actually say be as the number of battery in energy storage systems have increased, the incidence of these risks have gone down dramatically. And the reason is that technology is advancing. The safety measures are advancing, the standards are are advancing. So these things are becoming safer and safer. But if you're a community member and you have questions, ask the developer these questions. Say to them, what battery are you using? Is this a reputable company? How many What measures do you have in place in case something does happen? And these are all great questions to ask, and those who are our members of energy storage Canada, you know they will, they will be able to answer those and provide that comfort.

Trevor Freeman 37:27

Absolutely great, good answer. Okay, final question here, What is the long term vision for energy storage Canada? You know, we're seeing movement in the sector. We're seeing more adoption. Where do you kind of see your organization, your association, going in the coming years. We expect

Justin Rangooni 37:46

it to continue to grow as the sector grows. And really what we want to see is that in every jurisdiction, with every utility, and soon to get down to the residential that they're seeing energy storage technologies as a viable option. So if you're a system operator, or you're a government and you're looking at the supply mix and saying, Well, how are we going to make sure we can keep the lights on while keeping rates low, energy storage is like, if not the first option, it is up there. And that's really the vision. Now this is seen as a mainstream resource, that it is no question that you wouldn't look at energy storage as part of your solution, on the distribution level or at the transmission level. So the very exciting vision, and again, we talked about the residential and becoming a prosumer, and then that really is the opportunities start to become even more endless.

Trevor Freeman 38:34

Yeah, it's one of the things. I mean, our listeners are probably roll their eyes because they hear me say this all the time. But one of the things I like about being in this sector, this kind of energy space, is exactly that you can see the vision for how these various technologies, these strategies, this sort of new way of dealing with energy, seem really exciting and really cool, but they're also not that far down the road, like we're in the midst of this change when it comes to all this technology, I think energy storage is a perfect example of that, where just a couple years ago, maybe four or five years ago, it was hard to even imagine where we are today and where we'll be in the very near future, because things are changing so fast. So I share your excitement for that vision. Thanks for sharing that with us, and no doubt, energy storage Canada will have a big role to play in that today and in the years to come. Justin, thanks very much for this conversation. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to fire those at you now, and we'll see. We'll see what you come up with. So first question is always, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Okay,

Justin Rangooni 39:45

that's a great question. This is my favorite part of these podcast interviews, really. Um, we saw a little political jump junkie who likes Pulitzer Prize winning books, so I kind of focus on political history. So if you want. Ever want to read any of those that are the best? I would say the Teddy Roosevelt trilogy by Edwin Morris is a must read. They're fantastic. So that's when I read those. I'm like, Okay, this was, are you gonna top this? So you're always chasing that next book to read like that. That's

Trevor Freeman 40:16

awesome. I just as a complete aside, my kids school does this big used book sale every year, and it was just this past weekend, and you never know what you're going to find when you're like, wandering through the aisles and there's books there that you never heard of, and you pick something up. So I have this new stack of books at home that I can dive through, and I'm the same with you. I like to, yeah, read about some historical figure or some, like, important period when it comes to policy, and just kind of, yeah, try and get myself into that headspace. So, same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show you watch that you think everybody should

Justin Rangooni 40:52

Oh, well, it's gonna take, like, almost the exact opposite of like, seriousness. But you know, the officer Veep, you know you can go to those anytime, like just long lasting stand up. I think we're gonna be watching those episodes in the next 30 years, even though Veep is getting kind of more real than I think they originally thought.

Trevor Freeman 41:13

And yeah, in a kind of scary way, but I hear you, yeah, it's good to have those classics that you can always go back to if someone offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where

Justin Rangooni 41:24

would you go? Well, as we're taping this, and it's winter and it's cold and there's snow, probably somewhere like Fiji or Bora, Bora, where it's warm and there's beaches, so especially the warmth is where we're really emphasizing right now, I hear you in February.

Trevor Freeman 41:39

Yeah, absolutely. That's the joy and the curse of living in Canada. Who is someone that you admire?

Justin Rangooni 41:47

Well, I'd say you for doing these podcasts, but that is pretty cool that you're doing. Nate, so I appreciate it. You're on the list. Otherwise, I would say otherwise, frontline workers, you know, for even talking about even our sector, you know, you got lines men, you got people who are putting their lives on the line, nurses, teachers, doctors, police officers. You know, those who, every day are putting are on that front lines to do something for others. I think that's those are the real heroes out there.

Trevor Freeman 42:15

Awesome, great answer. And finally, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about. And I know we kind of just talked about this, but I'll let you, I'll let you elaborate.

Justin Rangooni 42:26

Oh, it's an easy one, that it's continually evolving like nothing is stagnant. The way things are. We've seen today are going to change tomorrow, and energy storage is a fantastic example of that, where we first talked to 2021 Oh, we were just getting started now. Here we are, and the momentum is growing. If you have me again in another couple years, who knows where we're going to be at that time? So it's really exciting to see where, where it's going.

Trevor Freeman 42:50

Absolutely awesome. Great answer. Justin, thanks very much for your time. I appreciate the conversation. I appreciate your passion and excitement for this pretty cool technology that's going to have a big role to play as we kind of navigate this energy transition, and really already is playing a big role. So thanks for coming on. Thanks for your time and appreciate the

Speaker 1 43:08

conversation. Thanks for having me, Trevor talk again, my friend, awesome. Take care.

Trevor Freeman 43:15

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at think energy, at hydro ottawa.com, you.

#26 - The Hidden Risk in "No-Risk" Countries with Christian Jervelund