Jerusalem Demsas on The Dispossessed, Gulliver's Travels, and Of Boys and Men
Sep 6, 2023
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Jerusalem Demsas, a staff writer at The Atlantic known for her sharp political insights, dives into the worlds of literature with Tyler. They explore themes from Ursula K. Le Guin's 'The Dispossessed', such as capitalism versus collectivism and gender dynamics. The conversation shifts to Jonathan Swift's 'Gulliver's Travels', discussing alienation and the critique of societal structures. They also ponder moral progress through literature and its connections to feminism and societal roles, questioning if travel truly aids self-discovery or merely reflects our complexities.
The books discussed in the podcast prompt questions about human nature, gender dynamics, the purpose of travel, and moral progress.
Gulliver's Travels raises questions about the value and impact of satire in understanding human nature and social issues.
Boys and Men highlights the gender disparities in men's responses to public policies and raises questions about societal expectations placed on men.
Deep dives
The Plight of Men in Modern Economies
The book explores the challenges faced by men in modern economies, highlighting the gender disparities in college completion rates and academic achievement. It argues that public policies often fail to address the unique struggles of men, and advocates for measures such as paid leave for fathers and increasing the number of male teachers. The book also proposes the idea of red-shirting boys, starting them one year later in kindergarten, to address some of the disparities. However, it is criticized for overlooking the broader feminist understanding of how patriarchy harms men as well. It raises questions about the limitations of travel in understanding oneself and happiness, drawing parallels to the stories of Gulliver's Travels and The Dispossessed. It concludes by suggesting that men and women are more different than previously thought and highlights the need to recognize and address these differences in policy-making.
Ambiguity of Satire in Gulliver's Travels
Gulliver's Travels is a readable and satirical novel written in the 18th century. It follows the protagonist, Gulliver, as he encounters fantastical societies and uses satire to critique human behavior and travel narratives of the time. The novel raises questions about the value and long-lasting impact of satire in understanding human nature and social issues. It explores themes of alienation, the search for identity, and the limitation of knowledge gained through travel. The protagonist's experiences challenge his preconceptions and ultimately leave him unfulfilled. The novel is seen as a reflection of the social and political issues of its time, offering various interpretations depending on the reader's perspective.
Understanding Gender Disparities in Policy-Making
Richard V. Reeves' book, Boys and Men, addresses the gender disparities in men's responses to public policies. It highlights that men often have different elasticities compared to women, meaning that certain policies may have a disproportionately low impact on men. The book suggests various policy recommendations, including paid leave for fathers, increasing male representation in teaching, and red-shirting boys. However, it draws criticism for overlooking the feminist understanding of patriarchy's harm to men. The book raises questions about cultural norms and societal expectations placed on men and offers insights into the complexities of gender disparities in policy-making.
The Difficulty of Moral Progress and Cultural Vigor
Jonathan Swift, the author of Gulliver's Travels, explores the theme of the difficulty of moral progress and the cultural vigor of societies. He highlights that moral progress is challenging and often hindered by the existence of factions and wars. Swift critiques the concept of utopian societies and questions if the cost of achieving them, such as extreme communal living or extreme gender dynamics, is worth the gain. He suggests that the family unit may be the best compromise, but retains a sense of restlessness towards the human condition.
Travel as a Mode of Knowing
The importance of travel as a mode of knowledge is highlighted in Gulliver's Travels. The protagonist, Gulliver, travels to various societies that represent different social and political systems. Through his travels, Swift explores the flaws and absurdities inherent in human society. The idea that travel allows for a deeper understanding of different cultures and systems of governance is emphasized, as Gulliver gains insights and challenges his preconceived notions. Travel as a mode of knowing is seen as valuable in broadening one's perspectives and contributing to a deeper understanding of the human condition.
In this special episode, Tyler sat down with Jerusalem Demsas, staff writer at The Atlantic, to discuss three books: The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin, Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift, and Of Boys and Men by Richard V. Reeves.
Spanning centuries and genres and yet provoking similar questions, these books prompted Tyler and Jerusalem to wrestle with enduring questions about human nature, gender dynamics, the purpose of travel, and moral progress, including debating whether Le Guin prefers the anarchist utopia she depicts, dissecting Swift's stance on science and slavery, questioning if travel makes us happier or helps us understand ourselves, comparing Gulliver and Shevek's alienation and restlessness, considering Swift’s views on the difficulty of moral progress, reflecting on how feminism links to moral progress and gender equality, contemplating whether imaginative fiction or policy analysis is more likely to spur social change, and more.
