Things That Go Boom

A Walkman and a Wire

Feb 17, 2025

Mike German, a Fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice and former FBI undercover agent, shares gripping insights from his time infiltrating neo-Nazi groups. He discusses how the FBI manipulated post-9/11 fears to sidestep critical regulations and highlights troubling inefficiencies in domestic terrorism case management. German critiques the FBI's inconsistent approach to threats, from white supremacy to animal rights activism, and reflects on the moral complexities of undercover work amid a politicized justice system.

32:29

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Episode guests

Mike German

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Quick takeaways

Mike German's transition from financial crime investigations to undercover operations in neo-Nazi groups highlights the complex challenges faced by law enforcement in counterterrorism.

The podcast critiques the FBI's inconsistent handling of domestic terrorism, emphasizing that political pressures often distort the agency's focus on actual threats like white supremacist violence.

Deep dives

The Early Years and Shift to Undercover Work

Mike German's initial aspirations to catch criminals as an FBI agent quickly shifted when he spent his first four years investigating financial crimes related to significant bank failures. His early career, beginning in 1988, was marked by the aftermath of Black Monday and the complexities of high-stakes financial fraud investigations that grossed over $100 million. Eager for a more thrilling experience, he transitioned to an undercover role in 1992 amid societal chaos in Los Angeles, specifically engaging with neo-Nazi groups. Here, he faced myriad challenges, not only in managing the risks of undercover work but also in integrating himself into a dangerous social environment where proving his credibility was paramount.

Intro

2min

Navigating Trust and Betrayal in Criminal Networks

2min

Investigating Domestic Terrorism: The FBI's Role and Challenges

2min

The Complexities of Domestic Terrorism

14min

Activism Under Fire: The FBI's Misguided Response

10min

The Politicization of Justice and Undercover Challenges

3min

Initially assigned to $100 million bank failure investigations, Mike German’s FBI career took a pivotal turn in 1992, when he went undercover to infiltrate neo-Nazi groups in LA. The years that followed gave him a front-row seat to the Justice System’s handling of domestic terrorism from the 1990s to his departure in 2004.

When Mike left the FBI, it was after reporting deficiencies in the bureau’s counterterrorism operations in the wake of 9/11. And today he and his colleagues are taking on the FBI in the halls of Congress and in court.

On this episode, Mike tells us how FBI leaders exploited America’s fear of terrorism after 9/11 to break free of regulations imposed on them in the wake of Hoover-era civil rights abuses. And how today, the FBI can’t even count the number of domestic terrorism cases it handles.

And that’s before the Trump administration’s purge.

GUEST: Mike German, Fellow, Brennan Center for Justice

ADDITIONAL RESOURCES:

Policing White Supremacy: The Enemy Within, Mike German and Beth Zasloff, New Press

Disrupt, Discredit, and Divide: How the New FBI Damages Democracy, Mike German, New Press

Justice Department Must Reveal the Real Scope of Domestic Terrorism, Mike German and Faiza Patel, Brennan Center for Justice.