Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:

• Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail

• Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable

• The importance of fame in building successful brands

• The importance of timing in product success

• The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable”

• Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating

• Lots of real-world case studies

• Much more

Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality.

—

Brought to you by:

• Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

• Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot

• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing

—

Where to find Rory Sutherland:

• X: https://x.com/rorysutherland

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland

• Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Rory’s background

(02:37) The success and failure of products

(04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing

(08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design

(12:29) The MAYA principle

(15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous

(17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests

(21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking

(30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking

(31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor

(38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption

(49:21) The quirks of Google Glass

(55:44) Survivorship bias

(56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas

(01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations

(01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity

(01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel

(01:23:35) Where to find Rory

—

Referenced:

• Google Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

• Meta Portal TV: https://www.meta.com/portal/products/portal-tv/

• Rory’s quote in a LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brad-jackson-04766642_the-urge-to-appear-serious-is-a-disaster-activity-7093497742710210560-1LYN/

• The MAYA Principle: Design for the Future, but Balance It with Your Users’ Present: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/design-for-the-future-but-balance-it-with-your-users-present

• Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/

• MCI: https://www.mci.world/

• Veuve Clicquot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veuve_Clicquot

• Why do the French call the British ‘the roast beefs’?: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2913151.stm

• The Killing on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-killing-f5da5c2d-4626-4ba9-bcf3-ff5f891771fb

• Original The Killing on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017h7m1

• The Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/hong-kong/victoria-harbour

• SAT: https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/sat

• The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test: https://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

• What is the age of the captain?: https://www.icopilots.com/what-is-the-age-of-the-captain/

• Octopus Energy: https://octopus.energy/

• Kraken: https://octopusenergy.group/kraken-technologies

• Toby Shannan: https://theorg.com/org/shopify/org-chart/toby-shannan

• Dunbar’s number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191001-dunbars-number-why-we-can-only-maintain-150-relationships

• AO: https://ao.com/

• Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/

• Joe Cano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycano/

• John Ralston Saul’s website: https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/

• Voltaire’s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199

• Psycho-Logic: Why Too Much Logic Deters Magic: https://coffeeandjunk.com/psycho-logic/

• Herbert Simon’s Decision-Making Approach: https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/4995/1/Fulltext.pdf

• Robert Trivers’s website: https://roberttrivers.com/Welcome.html

• Crazy Ivan: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Crazy_Ivan

• The Joys of Being a Late Tech Adopter: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/technology/personaltech/joys-late-tech-adopter.html

• Jean-Claude Van Damme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Van_Damme

• Tim Berners-Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

• Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

• The real story behind penicillin: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic

• What Are Japanese Toilets?: https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/info/blog/japanese-toilets/

• reMarkable: https://remarkable.com/

• Chumby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumby

• Survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

• Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

• Marc Newson’s website: https://marc-newson.com/

• Designing Men: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2013/11/jony-ive-marc-newson-design-auction

• Qantas A330: https://marc-newson.com/qantas-a330/

• Herodotus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

• Big Decision? Consider It Both Drunk and Sober: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2016/03/22/wine-and-sleep-make-for-better-decisions/?sh=5c97fdc524b1

• How Henry Ford and Thomas Edison killed the electric car: https://www.speakev.com/threads/how-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison-killed-the-electric-car.4270/

• Watch Jay Leno get nostalgic and swoon over this 1909 EV: https://thenextweb.com/news/jay-leno-talk-about-electric-car-1909-baker

• Jay Leno’s Garage: https://www.youtube.com/@jaylenosgarage

• Nudgestock: https://nudgestock.com/

• Akio Morita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita

• Don Norman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnorman/

• What Makes Tesla’s Business Model Different: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/072115/what-makes-teslas-business-model-different.asp

• Monica Lewinsky on X: https://x.com/MonicaLewinsky

• Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains: azon.com/Blindsight-Mostly-Hidden-Marketing-Reshapes-ebook/dp/B07ZKZ5DWF

• Branding That Means Business: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-that-Means-Business-Economist-ebook/dp/B09QBCCH9N

• PwC: https://www.pwc.com

• Ryanair: https://www.ryanair.com

• British Airways: https://www.britishairways.com/

• Wrigley’s began as a soap business: know when to pivot: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/wrigleys-began-as-soap-know-when-to-pivot/

• Transport for Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Transport-Humans-Perspectives-Pete-Dyson/dp/1913019357

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

How uncovering your core values can transform your agency or team with Glide Design's Travis McAshan