#85 – Roger Penrose: Physics of Consciousness and the Infinite Universe
Mar 31, 2020
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Roger Penrose, a brilliant physicist and mathematician from the University of Oxford, dives into the intriguing intersections of consciousness, computation, and the universe. He argues against viewing consciousness purely as computation, asserting that it's a deeper phenomenon. The conversation touches on quantum mechanics, its challenges, and the role of microtubules in consciousness. They also break down the philosophical implications of infinity and the cosmos, engaging listeners in a profound exploration of existence and understanding.
Consciousness cannot be fully explained by computational processes according to Roger Penrose.
Consciousness may originate at the quantum level in microtubules, challenging conventional quantum mechanics.
The conformal cyclic cosmology theory proposes the existence of a universe before the Big Bang.
Deep dives
Roger Penrose's quest to understand consciousness and computation
Roger Penrose, a physicist, mathematician, and philosopher at the University of Oxford, explores the nature of consciousness and its relationship to computation. He challenges the prevailing belief that consciousness is a result of computational processes and argues that it cannot be fully explained by conventional quantum mechanics. Penrose suggests that consciousness may originate at the quantum level inside neurons, specifically in microtubules. These structures, present in most cells, preserve quantum coherence and may play a crucial role in the reduction of states in quantum mechanics. While still in the early stages of exploration, Penrose's ideas offer a fresh perspective on the nature of consciousness and its potential connection to quantum physics.
The role of microtubules in consciousness and anesthesia
Stuart Hammeroff, a collaborator of Roger Penrose, has put forth the hypothesis that consciousness is directly affected by microtubules within neurons. He suggests that general anesthetics may act on these structures, turning off consciousness. While further research and experimentation are needed to validate these ideas, there is growing evidence pointing towards the influence of microtubules on consciousness and anesthesia. Ongoing experiments aim to investigate the direct effects of anesthesia gases on microtubules, providing a potential pathway to better understanding the relationship between consciousness and these cellular components.
The search for a comprehensive theory of consciousness and intelligence
The quest for a comprehensive theory of consciousness and intelligence is still in its early stages. Existing theories can be categorized into the superb, the useful, and the tentative, with the search for a complete understanding falling into the tentative category. It remains a challenge to bridge the gap between computational theories of consciousness and alternative perspectives that question the role of computation. While there is ongoing debate and conflicting viewpoints, the exploration of consciousness continues to drive scientific inquiry and holds the promise of transformative discoveries in the future.
Nature's Choice in Consciousness
The speaker discusses the different views on the role of consciousness in quantum physics. While some physicists believe that consciousness determines the state of a system, the speaker proposes that the state of a system reduces itself in some way, giving rise to consciousness. This choice by nature leads to proto-consciousness, which forms the basis of actual consciousness. The speaker highlights the challenge of understanding how the brain organizes individual choices into a coherent conscious experience.
Conformal Cyclic Cosmology and the Big Bang
The speaker presents the idea of conformal cyclic cosmology, suggesting that another universe existed before our Big Bang. He explains that as our universe expands and becomes less interesting, black holes will merge and eventually dissipate through Hawking radiation. The universe will grow colder and eventually become devoid of even black holes. The speaker then proposes that photons, with their lack of mass and measure of scale, travel from our universe to the next big bang in a cyclical manner. He suggests that these signals from previous eons could possibly be detected, and discusses the implications for the Fermi paradox and the search for extraterrestrial life.
Roger Penrose is physicist, mathematician, and philosopher at University of Oxford. He has made fundamental contributions in many disciplines from the mathematical physics of general relativity and cosmology to the limitations of a computational view of consciousness.
This conversation is part of the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you would like to get more information about this podcast go to https://lexfridman.com/ai or connect with @lexfridman on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Medium, or YouTube where you can watch the video versions of these conversations. If you enjoy the podcast, please rate it 5 stars on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, or support it on Patreon.
Here’s the outline of the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time.
OUTLINE:
00:00 – Introduction
03:51 – 2001: A Space Odyssey
09:43 – Consciousness and computation
23:45 – What does it mean to “understand”
31:37 – What’s missing in quantum mechanics?
40:09 – Whatever consciousness is, it’s not a computation
44:13 – Source of consciousness in the human brain
1:02:57 – Infinite cycles of big bangs
1:22:05 – Most beautiful idea in mathematics
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