The Christian right has made sex political, along with everything else

Episode Summary

Everywhere you look, the radical Christian right is on the march trying to ban abortion, birth control, pornography, and books that they think are insufficiently pure, or insufficiently deferential to their beliefs.

Obviously, trying to force everyone to live according to their religion is a huge motivating factor for far-right Christians. But it isn’t the only reason that they’re doing this. It’s also about trying to stop people from experiencing other ways of thinking, and other ways of feeling. Because if people are allowed to choose, they won’t choose the Christian right’s oppressive beliefs.

My guest on today’s episode knows a lot about all of that. Her name is Sinn Sage, and she is an adult film actress who has been in the industry for a number of years. And she has a lot to say about this topic and many others— which makes sense since she’s also the host of the podcast “Sage Advice With Sinn Sage,” which focuses on adult entertainment and also relationships and sex.

As you might expect, this episode of Theory of Change is “not safe for work.”

The video of this discussion is available. The transcript of audio is below. Because of its length, some podcast apps and email programs may truncate it. Access the episode page to get the full text.

Related Content

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* How former porn star Nyomi Banks is helping straight men understand intimacy and themselves

* 1950s housewife books are the latest trend among far-right women

* Why becoming a sexual subject can help women overcome objectification

* Personal insecurity and right-wing extremism often go together

Audio Chapters

00:00 — Introduction

02:00 — Are adult entertainers finally realizing that the far-right wants to criminalize their business?

19:11 — Flashback: MAGA porn star Brandi Love expelled from a Charlie Kirk conference

24:11 — Why informed and empowered sexuality is dangerous to religious authoritarians

28:42 — Repressed male bisexuality and right-wing authoritarianism

31:56 — Low-grade podcasters are ruining the lives of their audiences with their awful advice

38:03 — Sex work and the human need for intimacy

43:56 — Sinn’s journey out of religion

01:06:44 — Why seeing others’ humanity makes it so much harder to hate them

01:12:55 — Answering the radical feminist critique of pornography

01:17:02 — Why intimacy and attraction are essential

01:27:42 — Artificial intelligence and the future of adult media

Audio Transcript

The following is a machine-generated transcript of the audio that has not been proofed. It is provided for convenience purposes only.

MATTHEW SHEFFIELD: One of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is that you are so political and you know so much about where your industry is positioned in society as a whole.

Do you ever feel like you feel that you're kind of alone in that regard, or you wish people knew more or were more active in trying to preserve and advocate for themselves? Is that something you've thought about, is that part of why you started your podcast? I don't know. That's a lot of questions there. So you can answer what you want.

SINN SAGE: No, You're good. No. I will say that's, that is not part of why I started my podcast to activate people or people in my own industry. Not so much to activate society at large to be like, see, I felt strongly. There are lots of times I think as a performer, you come up with a platform.

Once you realize you have a platform, right? Once you realize I've got this many people following me on these many different social media platforms, paying attention to what I say, You have to come, you have to decide for yourself. And how am I going to use that? And I don't, I'm not going to judge anyone for making the choice to use their platform just to make an income.

Like that is your f*****g choice and you do not have to be engaged with this stuff. That's a big thing. A lot of us sex workers say in general is like, “get your bag.” Like, I'm not mad at you for it.

So I don't feel like the sense of like, wow, why can't I pull more of you into this? It's I'm just like, I can only speak for myself. But when I looked around and I saw the size of my platform and I saw how passionately I feel, especially about queer issues and as years have gone on, how Like the fight is here and I need to be engaged with it.

Like I need to be a part of it because [00:04:00] my goal is queer people and sex worker, total liberation. I don't. Want any of this hate. I don't think we deserve it, but so that was a conscious choice that I made. And there have even been times where I'm just like, Oh, maybe I should just like pull back on this a little bit.

And, maybe then like I'd make a little more money and I'd be a little more stable or something. Especially. In 2016, that was really rough, and my Twitter account was at over $300,000. And ever since 20 $16, 300,000 followers, sorry. And ever since 2016, I've dropped down to like 2 98 or something, and I've never gone back up over 300.

So that's something that made me be like, does this. Is this something when I want to do like I, and I, Oh, I also received a few emails from people who were like I want to order a custom video where you wear a Trump hat and then s**t gets dumped on your head and, stuff like this, because, there's just so loving over there on that side of things, but,

Real Christlike, but I saw some of that, like direct backlash.

I also got caught up, f*****g no doubt, like I was definitely caught up. I deleted my Facebook account in 2018 because it was like people that I grew up with, being friends with we're on Facebook and just like fighting and saying these really horrible things about each other. And Yeah, I was like, you know what?

And a number of things. It's just the way I saw certain people using Facebook and I just think it's a terrible,

SHEFFIELD: Well, it's just filled with so much trash. Like I hate Facebook.

SAGE: It's like it's awful. So I got rid of that account.

SHEFFIELD: A cesspool.

SAGE: Yes, cesspool. But so is Twitter, but the difference is, I figured this out kind of recently, is that like on Facebook, it's all your friends and family on Twitter and [00:06:00] Instagram and all these places, it's a lot.

It's mainly strangers and so.

SHEFFIELD: And a lot of them like you,

SAGE: Oh yeah. And so doing it on, and so having these opinions and a lot of people agree with me when a lot of people think differently from me, but they still appreciate hearing the things that I say. And I've even had, I've even had people say, I used to think this way.

I listened to everything you were saying. I saw how much sense it made. And I sort of. Change the way I think about things. And I was like, Jesus, crap, I'm doing it. It's happening. But like that. So when I think about what, one of the aspects that really motivated me to make my podcast, it was more about hope.

Using that, using my platform in the ways to uplift these people, these specific people, sex workers, especially. So sex workers and queer people is huge in my podcast because I want to normalize and humanize, I want to normalize conversations around sex and sex work and queerness, and I want to humanize sex workers and queer people.

And I think that like the format that I use of my podcast is it lends itself to that. I think a lot of that is going on and I think like if people just stumble across it and find it and maybe their mind is flexible enough to hear some of the things that we talk about and recognize the issues on a societal aspect.

The other thing about the question that you had asked me is that like, in my community of sex workers. Um, they are pretty activated, not all of them. And like I said, that's fine. But a lot of them, and that's probably why, like, I am friends with them.

SHEFFIELD: You like them because they agree with you (laughs). But they should, but they should!

SAGE: But it’s not just that they agree with me, but that they are also activated in the same way that they are also advocates for these things.

And like someone that I met in Vegas. Summer Hart, like [00:08:00] she's just so smart. So she's like, she is the, like a body I would sculpt out of clay. I mean, she's just got like, she's got, she's totally natural. And she's got huge titties and a big round ass and the small little waist. And I mean, she's just like, And she's just beautiful and she's stunning to look at and very successful, but she's also so f*****g smart that like, honestly, there's so many times that I'm like, I can say all of these things, but then I start firing up my limbic part of my brain and I get like real confused because I'm just too passionate about it.

I'm like, go talk to summer because she is just so f*****g well spoken and she's such a good activist about these things and she is actually like gone to the f*****g state legislators and had meetings and tried to like, get them to understand what sex trafficking really is. And. Like what the policy should be when sex workers are arrested on the streets of Vegas and stuff and that it shouldn't, we want to do harm reduction, not put them in a worse place.

She's actually got, gotten to have seats at the table in these things. Places. And so, she runs SWAID, which is Sex Worker Mutual Aid and people can apply for micro grants through SWAID, sex workers can. And this is a nationwide program. She's got plan B, she's got Narcan test kits, and all of these various things, and she's just like passionate about getting it out to people and just, man, such a good activist. And so, so yeah, people like that. I tend to be more, I guess, drawn to it. We have a personal friendship, beyond, work.

So, so I do see a lot of that.

SHEFFIELD: Well, that's good. Yeah. Did you catch that little incident that was involving Brandi Love and that right wing conference, a couple of years ago, did you see that?

SAGE: Oh so I, [00:10:00] did not see that, but if I find out that a performer is MAGA, like they are on my list. I won't follow them and I don't want to have anything to do with them. So I did, I was aware of that. I had people say, I want to put you in a scene with this person. And I was like, ‘Nope, I'm doing okay on my own. I don't need to be in a scene and I will not work with that person.’

Because there's just so much self delusion going on there. Mainly with the fact that they don’t care that Republicans are trying to stop porn. They have let the evangelicals take over that party a hundred percent. And their number one goal is to take away rights from women over their own bodies.

They want abortion ban over the whole country. Does not care how many children get raped.

SHEFFIELD: They do not.

SAGE: want queer people to get married. And it's like, especially what really makes me f*****g almost the most angry is like, these women perform in girl-girl scenes, you're performing lesbian acts on camera for money.

So you're totally cool to exploit that aspect of it for your own personal gain. But when it comes to like the rights of these people in this country, you could give a f**k. You do not care at all. And so like, That part of it blows my mind. And then the part of it where it's like, you think, that you're going to be the special one that like gets to go ahead and keep making porn and keep living the lifestyle that you live.

No, they will throw you in a f*****g camp too. Like they will throw you in jail when they implement their Project 2025 b******t, when they make porn illegal, you read it right there in black and f*****g white. Exactly what they want to do. They want to criminalize porn. They want to jail pornographers. And you're out there waving your MAGA flag!

Like just the cognitive dissonance is, it's it's staggering, the levels [00:12:00] there. And those are the same people that will just say, they'll be like, Oh, that's not going to happen. Like, do you know how many people said that about Roe versus Wade? Like, Everyone was saying that.

No, they'll never do that. It'll be fine. And now we live in a world where f*****g 10 year olds get impregnated by their dad and can't get abortions. Like, and you're f*****g okay with this. I'm sorry. And

SHEFFIELD: you're going for that party. Yeah.

SAGE: And you want that. You are going to go in that voting booth and vote for that motherfucker.

Like, Oh, man, it just,

SHEFFIELD: I try

SAGE: to like, not like in these situations, I'm down if I'm like, let's f*****g talk about it. Let's do it. But I have to really try hard to live my life with peace. So I, and I feel, and I, feel like I'm very constantly always walking this tight rope where it's like on one side, I'm so f*****g outraged by all of this stuff.

And I feel like such a passionate drive towards activism and and then on the other side of this tightrope, it's like, man, I just want to live, be happy. I just want to live in peace. And I, and the media and the, like, my goddamn phone is constantly trying to, like, get me. Enraged and get me like responding and boosting the algorithm and stuff.

And it's like, it's, very difficult to find a place to, to find that place of peace to, sort of detach from reality and remember that, like what's real, like, not, I'll be dead and none of this will have mattered, but I'm here now and it f*****g matters.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah, no, it makes sense. And Steve [00:14:00] Bannon, when he first came in as Trump's chief of staff or I guess White House advisor he said that their goal was to “flood the media zone with s**t.” And for a very good reason, because like they want people who are normal and affirming and progressive, they want you to see all this s**t and be so disgusted by it that you're just like, Oh, I cannot deal with this awful s**t anymore.

I'm turning, I'm tuning out, I'm dropping out and and that's how they win. Because like. Americans, they don't want this s**t. They don't criminalize abortion. They don't want to criminalize birth control. They don't want to have mandatory prayer in school. They don't want any, they want their porn, like they want their marijuana.

Like, this is what most people want and, but the goal, but they can, but the right wing can only do this by getting people to just be so disgusted and turning out and just like, oh, it's, just too awful. I can't handle it. I can't handle it. Yeah.

SAGE: Yeah. And I do. Figuring out how to do that.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. So figuring out, how to be like, well, this is awful. But I exist in my own space and it is a positive space where I am around me. That's, I think, I feel like that's the ticket. And as much as you can cutting out personal drama and people who create problems for you in your life. Because yeah, you don't need to deal with that s**t. If you have a relative that won't leave you alone or a neighbor, that just pisses you off all the time. Don't talk to them.

SAGE: Yeah.

SHEFFIELD: It's totally okay.

SAGE: It's beyond okay. Like, yeah, you don't, I don't think I a lot of times I really don't think that like engaging in arguments with people who are on the other side of the Your political beliefs. [00:16:00] I don't, I think we've reached this stage politically as a nation where I don't think that is productive even.

I think it's like, you are just you're just talking to, yeah, you're, talking to a brick wall. You're literally just like bashing your head into a brick wall. Now there are people that I know a couple who are just like, gosh, I kind of feel like. Like Elon Musk is doing these good things. And I'm just like, okay, I can understand.

I used to feel like that way too, when he was first coming up and he's like renewable energy and I'm like, yes. Then he made like 150 billion and a lot of things changed. And I'm like, and now I can explain to you step by step, like the way he's gone downhill. But also his origins, which you might think are one thing, but they are the opposite of that thing.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. And that patience and that care for people who are like that is, that's fantastic. We need more of that because I do, sometimes I do feel like the progressives, we have our own little world and. When we see somebody who isn't familiar with the news stories or the issues, the, it's just, it's easy to, because I mean, there are a lot of shithead out there.

But at the same time, there are a lot of people who don't know. They just simply do not know. And those people need to be, need to be talked to in a compassionate and thoughtful way.

SAGE: Yeah. And that's part of it too. when you come back with anger and miss and just being like, no, you're wrong.

That's, not going to convince anybody either. It does have to be this, like, let me ask you this question. Do you struggle to pay rent? Do you, how much is your health insurance? Do you have it? Okay. Let's think about like the reasons behind these issues in your life. Are you going to blame the person with absolutely zero [00:18:00] power, who maybe a nickel of your taxes goes to help give them food stamps to pay, to feed their kids, is that the person that you're really mad at? Or is it the billionaire who is just working to take away union rights and the CE the multi million dollar CEO of a health insurance company who wants to make really sure that like that you have to pay 1, 500 a month to get the insurance. But if you have an emergency, they're going to find every reason possible to make sure that they don't have to pay for it.

I mean, it's just, who should you be mad at?

The person with zero power or the person owning all the institutional power of this entire f*****g country? Like, can I just say they're building a goddamn train on the moon? How much is that? Billions of dollars? So we can't have healthcare, but you can build a f*****g train on the moon?

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Get some priorities. Yeah, No.

Flashback: MAGA porn star Brandi Love expelled from a Charlie Kirk conference

SHEFFIELD: So, okay. So, but just for your, you said you hadn't heard about the incident that, Brandi had.

SAGE: Oh, please tell me. Yes.

SHEFFIELD: Okay. So the thing with Brandi Love is, so this happened in 2021 and I wish it had blown up more because it's so hilarious. So she is super MAGA. And also Christian as well, which that's, I don't quite understand. And so anyway, so she, she bought tickets to Charlie Kirk's, one of his Christofascist rallies.

SAGE: Yeah.

SHEFFIELD: And she showed up with a couple of her, I guess they're, assistants or who knows what, anyway. And so they were just wandering around and then that Nick Fuentes Nazi [00:20:00] guy, he had his people at the conference and they spotted her. And of course they all know who she is because, she's super famous and of course they all watch her and everybody else.

And so they knew exactly who it was. And they started like posting on social media about, Oh, Charlie Kirk has invited this satanic slut into a conference of children. Look at this a*****e. And so then they filtered back to Charlie. And he kicked her out of the house.

SAGE: Like, came down, found her, asked her to leave?

SHEFFIELD: Well, not him personally. Yeah, he had her removed. Sent his people to remove her. Yes. And she was not doing anything, pornographic.

SAGE: No.

SHEFFIELD: She was just walking around being supportive. She was wearing a dress. And not even showing any real, I don't, I, if I remember right, I don't think she even showed much of any cleavage at all.

And so she was just wandering, just wandering, and and they kicked her out and she was so angry about it and I'm just going to pull up what she had said about it. And I actually, I tried to talk to her about it. She, did not engage with me at all. and I thought that she might, because like a bunch of, people who work in porn follow me.

So, and it's, cause like when somebody replies to you, it says, so and so follows. This person, right? Right.

SAGE: Yeah.

SHEFFIELD: And so like, you can see if this is a, a person that would be relevant to you potentially that I'm not just, some shithead on the internet going to bother you.

SAGE: Yeah, not just a Twitter guy.

SHEFFIELD: A reply guy.

Oh, actually, here we go. I'm going to put the screen share of this article on the stream so you can see it right here. So I might as well. Yeah. And it has the shirt that she was wearing. So you can see, it's literally [00:22:00] the most tamest v neck t shirt.

SAGE: Oh yeah, totally, but she’s got gigantic honkers. So like, it's, I get this a lot with my ass sometimes where I'm like, I'm not even dressed egregiously, but people are treating me like I'm dressed insane!

SHEFFIELD: Well, it's also, I mean, I do think that, yeah, women's bodies are thought of as community property in some sense.

SAGE: Of course.

SHEFFIELD: And so anyway, so she got very angry and this is what she says: It's a Trojan horse. If I had known it was going to behave and feel like a religious cult, I would have never gone. It's not a central message in their mission. I love God and I hate organized religion.

SAGE: And it's like, she's got a personal relationship.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Jesus is her pal.

SAGE: Like I read what I read there too. I caught a little bit of that article and it's like, that some mothers were like made aware of who she was, the pornographic nature of her lifestyle or whatever, and that they were like afraid for their kids or something.

Your children are just going to see a woman that they don't know what the f**k she does for a living like that

SHEFFIELD: Well, or if they do already know her, they like her. You're not saving them from anything!

SAGE: Oh, blonde women with huge knockers tons. She looks just like—

SHEFFIELD: Mar-a-Lago.

SAGE: Mar-a-Lago.

SHEFFIELD: Maybe with less plastic surgery.

SAGE: It's just so crazy to see because of the again, even with that tweet, it's like the cognitive dissonance. She's like, if I would have known it would have been like a religious cult. And I'm like, You're so deep in the forest. You look around and you don't see f*****g trees.

Like the call is coming from inside the house, [00:24:00] lady.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah, no, it's true.

SAGE: But yeah, sometimes people are just s**t. Sometimes people are just s**t and that's just what they're going to do. So that's still a thing too.

Why informed and empowered sexuality is dangerous to religious authoritarians

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Because I, mean, as we've talked about it, I mean, the Christian right. They want to take all of this away and like yeah, like nobody should be voting for these a******s because especially if you're like if you are like a single guy like they're, they want to take away everything that you like, like they want to censor video games.

They want to take away your porn. And then they want to treat you as a second class citizen because you're single.

SAGE: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. If you're not out making babies, what are you doing?

SHEFFIELD: That's right. Yeah. And like, just they're, against everything who you are. Like it isn't just, so even if you can't fully see why sex workers are, should be protected and supported.

Like, or, that you don't maybe, have a lot of respect for, I don't know, whatever groups you don't like, understand that they're coming for you. They're coming for everybody who is not a, white Christian billionaire. Like if you're not those things, then you're going to get fucked and not in a good way.

SAGE: no, the worst, ways. Yeah, and it is, and, like, and this is why I do think that sex workers are so important because you, guys actually, your own lived experience is instructive to both women and to men.

Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. . Like when I started, especially there's more knowledge coming out and when we learn about. How utilizing the real words for parts, like really empowers, especially children.

And it is there the lack of explanation and this separation of self from body that we sort of impose on children at a young age and [00:26:00] like not explaining to them about their own body. That we're like, that's your cookie. That's your hoo ha whatever the f**k it's like, no, that's your f*****g vulva and this is your vagina.

And. You need to know these things. So if people start talking to you about this stuff, you can be like, this is wrong. It makes me uncomfortable. You could set your own bodily boundaries and autonomy. Like this is healthy. It keeps people from, it makes it less likely to experience sexual abuse. And with how f*****g rampant that is with children.

It's like, it's,

like, here I am a porn star. They're trying so desperately to keep me away from children when I have their best intentions at heart. Like, ultimately I am like, they need to know this about their body. They need to know like what violations are.

And when they reach a certain age, like when they're 13, 14, 15, then they should be learning about sex.

SHEFFIELD: Like their body is for them. It's not for. God, it's not

SAGE: for the man that will come into your life at some point or whatever. Like,

SHEFFIELD: this is your thing. It's your property and you should use it to the fullest degree and love it.

SAGE: And you should, and it's okay to feel pleasure like that. Like pleasure is not naughty. You shouldn't get worried about getting caught by your parents, like discovering your own pleasure. And it's awkward and uncomfortable, but I think the thing would like, if your parents discover it, it's well, if they walked into your room, it's like, Oh, I violated your privacy.

Like I will do better next time you have that conversation. If it's like, they're doing it on public, it's like, Hey, you know what? Totally love that you're exploring your body, but that is something that we do in private. So when you're in the bathroom or when you're in your bedroom, then you can go explore your body.

SHEFFIELD: But porn is also instructive and helpful for men, that porn really is most people's, at least maybe for a long time is most people's exposure to same sex intimacy.

SAGE: [00:28:00] Yeah, no, for sure.

Definitely.

SHEFFIELD: Like, and even though we've

SAGE: come a long way, you might see just the concept.

SHEFFIELD: But like, like if you lived in Victorville, California, like you wouldn't know, even now I would think like, you wouldn't know that many people who were out, lesbian or out gay. You just wouldn't. And so Where I

SAGE: grew up was even smaller than Victorville, California.

I wasn't the first person who was like holding hands with my girlfriend in high school, but I was probably the second.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Yeah, my high school was extremely

SAGE: small. Yeah, for

SHEFFIELD: sure.

Repressed male bisexuality and right-wing authoritarianism

SHEFFIELD: and like porn is basically, so for, non heterosexual people, it is educational in that sense for them. It's getting them to realize there's other people who don't do things that are heterosexual.

And yes, and, that it's not horrible. Like, and I wish, I wish, you That it was more of a, cause like, I feel like there are a lot of bisexual men out there.

SAGE: Oh, definitely.

SHEFFIELD: There are so many bisexual men, but there is so repressed. Yes.

SAGE: And that is a major issue currently, I letting believe for sure.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. I think, I actually think it's one of the biggest societal problems because, now the stigma against. Against bisexual women is, it's, mostly gone. Although people still don't take it seriously. I think,

SAGE: They don't.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Yeah. It's,

SAGE: it's kind of like the bi invisibility issue in general.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah, it's

SAGE: like you're either, a lot of people think, Oh yeah, you're just, you're on your way to being gay. And No, or it's like, people would be not even like a woman would not even want to hook up with me. Because I have a, because I have a male partner, so it's like, Oh, well, you're not, real.

And [00:30:00] I'm like, look, we're not even trying to have a. I'm not trying to marry you, like, but like, I am genuinely attracted to you very greatly.

And it's just like, but because I think they have, a lot of gay women have this just feeling that like. Well, you wouldn't really be into it cause you're just waiting for the next dick to come along. And it's just, that's so the opposite of me specifically. And that's why I don't really like identify as bisexual, but knowing that I have attractions that have the potential to go all directions.

So that's why I identify as queer. But I do

see

the

problem of bi erasure. And that's why I don't really like identify as bi erasure. And I, just dislike it when it comes to women. I just like that. It's yeah, like not taken seriously, but when it comes to men, it's like, it's so repressive and it's so, it's just like rooted in toxic masculinity and like traditional masculinity and like what that means that and again, to this idea that like, when people are misogynistic, when people are Uh, they are also, they are just misogynist in disguise because it's like they see gay men as being like feminine and they don't like feminine men and they don't like feminine men because they don't like femininity and they feel like femininity belongs in this particular box.

And if it doesn't look like that. It's just, it's all the same f*****g thing. Well, and

SHEFFIELD: yeah, an expressive feminine man should not exist in that world.

SAGE: Right. Yes.

SHEFFIELD: Stay in the closet. Yes.

SAGE: If you're a dude who wants to have a dick in your mouth, well, that's an issue for them. Yeah

Low-grade podcasters are ruining the lives of their audiences with their awful advice

SHEFFIELD: Yeah, but and but it is also I mean it isn't [00:32:00] only misogyny.

It's also no I mean it is definitely a fear of their own, homosexual desires And so like just like and it bugs the f**k out of me that like for instance Because I feel like men are, they have, there's a lot of men, a lot of cis hetero men are totally lost in this world. I feel like that there needs to be a, non toxic Hugh Hefner. That's what there needs to be as a way of modeling positive. Affirming masculinity.

Yes. And sexuality. Affirming male sexuality. That doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. And we've got, I repeat, we've got, all of these, Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan. It's trash. And it's harming Not only is it harming the women and, the, LGBTQ people in the, in this, it's also harming their own audience.

Like they're f*****g them up horribly because they're telling them s**t that isn't going to work that, that, Oh

SAGE: my God. That's so it's not going to work. And the response to this has been this anti. Man movement and not in the sense of like, f**k all men, although there is a little bit of that, like, I could say this is what leads to, there's 4B movement and the man versus bear.

Argument, and it's because they, these people are gathering up so many minds of young men and it's like, they're just teaching them to be worse. And so you have women responding by being like. Oh, cool. I'll I'm actually really happy being single and I'll just do that. Then I'll just be single and I just won't have kids.

And then they're watching like these, [00:34:00] okay. So people are having less kids. It's like, Oh, this is because of like all this feminist b******t. It's like, no, have you looked at the economy lately? Like who's going to f*****g be able to afford a kid, but also all of you men coming out and like talking about this s**t, it's like, who, who wants that?

Like, and then the fertility rates are dropping because there's f*****g microplastics in a hundred percent of people's f*****g balls because it's just in our body now because the f*****g deregulation of the food industry and the things that we consume. I mean,

SHEFFIELD: Oh God, I love this. I f*****g love this.

SAGE: And so then you've got these pundits on Fox News who are like, Oh, it's the liberal f*****g sex hookers, whatever.

And it's like, man. No, and religion isn't going to change any of this s**t. The only thing that's going to change this is getting rid of capitalism in the state that we have it in right now.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Oh man.

SAGE: And yeah, I am so glad that we are

SHEFFIELD: talking to each other. Yeah, this is so great. I love it. I love it. Yeah, no, you're right. The advice that they're giving to men, it's, also totally outward focused as well, because like, they're telling young boys, your only goal in life is to f**k women.

And it's like, if that's your goal in life, you're not, you're never going to have a meaningful relationship. Even if you do have sex. And you should actually love yourself and know yourself before you try to go out and like, you should be, you should like being single because you get a chance to finally know who you are and to be with yourself, but I think a lot of people, they don't.

They're afraid of being alone with themselves.

SAGE: A lot of people are afraid of being alone with themselves. And but like what you just said, that's, sort of my advice to people in general anyway, is like people who feel like they're so [00:36:00] desperately looking to find a partner not even just for sex, but like a life partner.

And I'm like, And I see a lot of them where it's like, you, haven't been alone for five f*****g minutes. Like you've never not had a boyfriend or whatever the case is, it's just like, yeah. Like, why would someone want to be with? You, if you don't even want to be with you, you have to know that you are like someone who's worthy, who has value.

And if you can't even see that, like you have to work on yourself first so that you can come to another person and be like, Hey, I don't need you. To, like, fill up this hole inside me.

SHEFFIELD: To complete me, yeah.

SAGE: Yes! Like, that was the most toxic f*****g thing of the 90s, right? You complete me. It's like, no, I'm complete, and you just, like, make things even better.

We complement. You don't complete me, you complement me. And that's like how I feel with my partner. It's like I, when we approached, when we found each other, it was like, it wasn't like I'm missing something and I desperately need you to fill this hole inside of me.

It was like, Hey, I'm good right now. I'm f*****g feeling great. I am looking great. I'm, good. So we can see if we want to be together. So it was a little like dancey at first, but it was ultimately like we fell in love so fast. But that was the thing is that it was very much like, I didn't want us to be having this codependency or something like that.

It was like, we are both full whole people and we just, we're even better when we're together, we just like being with each other and we, lift each other up in these ways. But not that like I needed you to, because I can't be alone. And like, I see that with my, with, I just, I see that in other people sometimes and it just kind of makes me like, Oh yeah, I wish you could [00:38:00] know that you're worth it.

Like

Sex work and the human need for intimacy

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Well, and it's all, it's also that I think, a lot of people, they, and this is probably more a thing for cishet men is that they don't have real friendships either. And so,

SAGE: yeah. And

SHEFFIELD: so the, their romantic partner is their only deep friend. Yeah.

SAGE: Then they don't even want, yeah. Like they, it is, and yet they won't even like.

deeply engage with that person even

SHEFFIELD: like,

SAGE: You could just have this sort of picture in your head of this type of Chad or this type of incel or this type of whatever Andrew Tate motherfucker. And it's just like, man, you haven't thought about. You haven't had an existential thought in your entire f*****g life.

That's kind of how I think about it. Like, and it's great. I do meet people like that sometimes. And I'm just like, man, you never once like thought about those. Big picture things like, like big like not even big picture, like, I don't know, like what, why are you here? But just thought about something other

SHEFFIELD: than your job and what you, what's on the team.

Yeah. Just

SAGE: like the deep, picture . Yeah. It's like my mind like if those are the only

SHEFFIELD: things you think about Yeah. Then yeah, you really gotta change your mindset. But

SAGE: I'd encourage it . Yeah.

SHEFFIELD: Well, and, like, but I mean, and historically I mean that is also a. a thing that sex workers have done, that in many cases, because like before therapy was even a thing.

And even now that it is, like a lot of people will not go to a therapist because they don't want to do it or just never even enters the picture or their religion tells them they shouldn't do it. And so that is why, like people in Hollywood sometimes mock the idea of [00:40:00] the, the stripper with the heart of gold story.

Like they think of it as a cliche, but in a lot of ways it actually is, that's how a lot of sex workers are for their clients. Because without them, they would have no. External significant thoughts. They wouldn't experience physical touch. Oh

SAGE: yes. The physical touch thing. Like I've, understood that since I was a stripper, like I said, stripping was the first just about the first sex work thing that I like really, did.

And yeah, I've thought a lot the first couple of years and I came to really understand like. That, I mean, I had a lot of experiences where it was just like, I could feel that this person needed this from me so badly and does not get it anywhere else in their life. And and that's a devastating thing.

And

SHEFFIELD: it's tragic for that person. Yeah.

SAGE: Yeah. Yeah. And not only that, I mean, I've had. experiences where it was just like, I would say I learned a lot about chemistry from giving lap dances at the strip club, and some people you're given a dance to, and they're just yeah, hot chick. Yeah.

Hot chick. But then other people, it's just like, you feel total strangers never saw them again. But like, I, there's a couple of clients that stand out in my mind that it was, and this is f*****g like more than 15 years ago. But I still remember these particular moments where I was like, he kept getting dances and we were just like making eye contact.

And there was just this heavy chemistry going between us. And I mean all this stuff, like sex work opened my mind and my eyes to so many different things. Like I feel that I used to be like anti Prostitution. When I was like 17, 18, I was just raised like where my mom would talk about that kind of stuff and be like, well, that's bad or whatever, but I don't think she even really understood why it was just [00:42:00] that era of feminism from the time that she came up in And just through doing the sex work, everything just started opening up.

And I was just like, why is that bad? Like if someone wants is willing, if someone is like, Hey, I offer this service and someone else is like, I really need that service and I will give you money for it. Whose business is it? Like, it's not the government's business. It's nobody like. It's just that like what makes it illegal?

Two people can f**k whenever they want, but now it's illegal because I left some money on the counter. Like

SHEFFIELD: blows

SAGE: my mind to this f*****g day. I am just so mind blown and, it's almost like now we can't even, we're so far away from even being able to address that topic. It's like because we are on the porn thing now and the porn thing has just kind of always been like well We've got the constitution so you can't tell these people that they can't make and these other people they can't consume You can't do that But we're getting closer to them like f*****g doing it and that way they're doing it is they're going like around the Constitution They're like they're skirting the issue by going to the children

SHEFFIELD: Also,

SAGE: and they're doing that, which, but we all know that, right?

It's like, it's always, they use, they pick up the children and they hold them out as like a f*****g, sword and shield as like, we're going into battle on their behalf and it's like, that's the parents business. Like I

SHEFFIELD: saw

SAGE: this tweet that I retweeted a little while ago that was like, you should be f*****g offended that the government and these lobbyists, religious groups and stuff are telling you that you don't know how to protect your child from from stuff online that you don't want them to see.

That's your job. That's not anybody else's job. Like you should be f*****g offended by that. And I'm like, good point.

Sinn's journey out of religion

SHEFFIELD: And like One of the other things that it can teach them is that [00:44:00] bodies are different and it's, and that there are so many different ones out there and, many people can be beautiful.

You yourself could be beautiful also, if you write about it.

SAGE: Yeah,

SHEFFIELD: and that's, it's something that, yeah, like, that's, I mean, like, ultimately the, whole right wing, religious hatred of porn and sex work. It's, that women are empowered and have agency, but it's also that men learn that they don't have to hate themselves and feel dead inside.

SAGE: Yeah.

SHEFFIELD: Those I think are to me why they hate it so much.

SAGE: Yeah. And I think those are major threats to their institutions of power.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Yeah. Because ultimately, I mean, and I, they want people to feel like that everything sucks and it can never get better. And you are not worth anything.

Yeah. And that you are not worth a goddamn thing. Yes. Yes. And you shouldn't try to band together with someone else to impact because that's not possible. Progress is not possible. No. Having something better is not possible. Being a better person. That's not possible. You are s**t and you should just accept it.

SAGE: Yep. That's why I think that religion for children, I think that's abuse, like straight up abuse, like even without

SHEFFIELD: the

SAGE: sexual abuse, like take that to the side for a second. Just telling a child who's just becoming aware that. You were born awful, so you're already broken and bad just because you exist but don't worry, there's a way to fix it if you [00:46:00] just, say the magic words and then follow this book chock full of contradicting rules, then you'll be worthy enough and valuable enough to like, Whatever.

I mean, it's just that thing where it's, marketing really like religion is just master of marketing because it's like convince people they have this problem and then provide the only solution.

SHEFFIELD: And then also prevent any sort of accountability of your solution. So, yeah. So, but I, so in your case though, when did you kind of have that realization?

Like, what was your background in religion?

SAGE: for me, like, it wasn't really It wasn't oppressed upon me in this terrible way. So I am extremely blessed and lucky that I have parents that were just. They were English teachers, so, they went to college at Humboldt State University. I was born in Arcata, California, which I guess if people don't really know, that is a super duper hippie college um, and Humboldt State University.

SHEFFIELD: Northern California.

SAGE: Yeah, it's Northern like super far Northern California, like six hours North of San Francisco in the Redwood forest. And that's where all the best weed in the world comes from. Like, it's just hippieville. Like you can literally go there anytime I could go there right now.

And there'd be some hippies in the plaza wearing their, Jerry Garcia pants. Or just, what you could get, what you get there. Anyway,

SHEFFIELD: there are evangelicals there too, though, right?

SAGE: there are some conservatives there too, but because, well, you just have this extreme kind of, cause you'll have people that are really big on guns and cause it's also very [00:48:00] rural.

So even though there is this like education institution and a lot of the more hippie Mindset, at least how things are now, that mindset, that sort of naturalistic path, the essential oil type stuff that can also slide right into the the manga. Yeah, it's called

SHEFFIELD: Pastel Q and I don't know what people call it.

Yeah.

SAGE: Yes. Yeah. So like the conspiracy theory stuff and all that, but let me not get too off topic here. So what I will say is that when, my, my dad got a job, a full time, a job, full time teaching in Southern California, and so we moved down there when I was like five and a half and, That was the desert and that was a totally different lifestyle, totally different place and there's lots of churches.

So I will say there was this moment, I remember it was like first grade and a kid had asked me, what religion are you? And I was I don't know. Uh, So like, I think I'd been made aware of the God concept. I know my parents were in a church when I was born, but I think that was a lot for sort of the community support aspect of it.

And then I moved to Southern California and I, so I went home and I said, mom, what religion am I? And she said, well, you're a Christian. And I was like, okay, so I just went and that's what I told the kid, like my mom says I'm Christian. That's what we are. Okay. Like no big deal. We're kids. Like, we're not really like thinking a lot about that.

And then over the years, like, I remember my mom taking us to a particular church one time and. Then there was like a youth, or Sunday school.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Cause I was

SAGE: little so, and that was interesting and kind of weird. And and then I'd stay the night at friends houses and the next day would be their time to go to church.

So I was like, is it cool if I go to this Catholic church with my friends? Cause I stayed over on Saturday night. Like now they're all going to church. Can I go? And she's like, well, yeah, you can go, it wasn't that [00:50:00] they were, Yeah. Not neither of my parents ever were like, no, you can't hear about these other ideas.

They, never enforced this Christian aspect on me either. So I went and tried a couple of times at the Catholic church and saw. Honestly, like there's at least one sermon that I remember being fairly positive and probably had some sort of influence on the way I think about life and stuff, but and then from there, but I didn't like get super into it.

And then another friend was like going to this thing called Awanas, which was more like youth group. But I was like. 11, 12, 13 at the time. And so it was like this booklet you got and you had all these s***s you had to memorize. Like they wanted you to memorize the, all the books of the Bible, like all this stuff.

It was like, why? But so this is where we're getting closer to sort of like when things start brewing for me. And there was this one night and. They set up the place where we would hold this as a, an airplane, like, like we're going in the airport. We got a ticket to get on the plane and we sit down the plane and they're like, the movie we're watching on the plane ride tonight.

It was f*****g left behind.

SHEFFIELD: The Kirk Cameron one, I presume, right?

SAGE: I'm not sure if it was before Kirk Cameron did his version. I think there's been several but we are talking like, 95. Kirk Cameron is

SHEFFIELD: the original one

SAGE: though. 95. It could be. It could be.

SHEFFIELD: I think it was him. Yeah.

SAGE: I don't remember a s**t ton about it, but like I do remember that it was terrifying.

And I was just too young at the time. How old were you

SHEFFIELD: again? Yeah, it's probably

SAGE: 12 when this happened and

SHEFFIELD: that's child abuse right there. I

SAGE: agree. Yes. They show you this terrifying thing and they say, when you die. Or when the rapture comes, because that's what the movie's more about, the rapture. And so it showed this mom waking up and she can't find her kids.

So she's [00:52:00] freaking out. Like our kids have been kidnapped or whatever. And she goes outside and everyone's

SHEFFIELD: like, yes,

SAGE: but it's shown in this terrifying way. Like where, as though it was a person that came and took them. And so that was really scary. and then they're like, I guess at the airport in heaven or whatever the f**k it is.

And. It's like, well, yeah, we love them, but like, they didn't believe. So they don't get to be here and we don't get to be together now. And and, oh my God. And I was just like, is that what it's like? Oh, f**k. Like, I don't want to not be, I don't want to be without my mom and dad when I, when we die and go to heaven or when the rapture, the idea of the rapture is absolutely ludicrous to me, but, I sit down in my room by myself and I pray and I say, Yes, Lord. They tell you, they give you instructions. This is what you need to say. A script.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Yeah, there's

SAGE: a script. And so I sat down and I said those things and I manifested this feeling in my heart, and I like shed a tear even.

It's funny 'cause it was almost like performative, but I was alone. And I, did all of that. And it's just interesting because it was almost like performative in a sense, even though I was. Alone in my room, but Oh,

SHEFFIELD: yeah.

SAGE: But so they could tell you

SHEFFIELD: make it, that's a word.

Yes. Fa that is really what they tell you.

SAGE: And it's a, and I like that for a lot of other aspects of life, , but I

SHEFFIELD: know that is ironic. Yeah.

SAGE: Yeah. But so to me that was like this big moving thing. And I think even at that point, my mom had already started kind of being like, I'm not sure about this religion stuff.

To a certain extent. And then the other thing is that I had always been taught that when it does come to God, God is love. That God is love and there's not, it was never taught about this sort of judgment stuff and

SHEFFIELD: that,

SAGE: You should be fearful of God and that he's all about the punishment.

Like that was definitely not the [00:54:00] attitude that my parents were trying to instill in us at all. Yeah. So, So then I, what really, so anyways, that's just to tell you that, like, they used fear to manipulate my very own mind towards this thing that they wanted me to do. And another element, like I remember being at that Awanas and it was this couple was, they're young couple and they were talking about the sex before marriage thing.

And they're like, we're getting, they were engaged. And I was like, so, and this is me at f*****g 12. I was like, you guys. I've never even, you've never had sex. You've never even kissed because that's the, thing, right? Like you cannot even make out, you cannot do any of that s**t. And I was like, what's it going to be like when you have your wedding night?

Don't you think that'll be awkward? But they were just so deep in with, drinking the Kool Aid. So then I joined this after school club, which we had on campus at the time because the satanic temple didn't exist yet to come and say, well, we also have a Satan club. So we were, so I was doing this, it was called the Alpha and Omega club and.

These are the two things that really pushed me to the change. Like, of course I was always been thinking about

SHEFFIELD: middle school.

SAGE: Yeah. So now I'm 13. So I'm 13. I'm in eighth grade. Ever since I was a kid, like, I remember the first time my babysitter was like, I don't believe in God. Like that's b******t.

And I was like, what? I thought that was so interesting. And she was just what is it? She was just explaining things to me in a rational way that made sense. And I was like, okay, but like, I still believe in God. So, but I think it just always just like my, I was always taught how to think, not what to think.

I'll put it that way. And so when, so first thing that happened, we have a little election and our little alpha Omega group that had maybe five, maybe like eight on a good day [00:56:00] and

SHEFFIELD: hierarchy started.

SAGE: Yes. So we had to have an election. Yep.

SHEFFIELD: I

SAGE: was like, well, I'm going to run for president of this club. So I went up and I was just like, to me, God is love.

And it's about expressing that love. And I think we need to find more, all these ways to like, really show God's love and like live in this and yada, right. And my best friend who was my best friend for years, like love her till the end of the days. And also the smartest person I know. Is still very Christian.

And I always fantasize about like talking to her about that stuff, now we're 40, I think we're just eh, I'll let it, lie. But anyways she gets up there and she's like, I was. My thing is that I fear God and her whole spiel was like the righteousness and the fear and the like all that type of like her vibe was opposite of mine.

And I was like, wow, I got this in the bag. Right. And no, I lost and she won. So that was a big thing for me where I was like, Whoa, what's this? Okay. Okay. Okay. That's fine. We'll go to the club and several weeks are going by or whatever. Okay. So, this. Someone had brought in this game. We would play this game.

I think it was some kind of a card game and the cards have these little like moral conundrums on them. And I mean, the point is to think

SHEFFIELD: about

SAGE: it through the lens of Christianity. The point, it's like a Jesus game, right? And so it's, so that each little conundrum on the, it's, meant to stimulate conversation about like what you would do through the It all ends in your faith or whatever.

And so the card was. Your friend is having a sleepover and I can't remember exactly the scenario, but it was something along these lines or yeah, your friend's having a sleepover but she has a sister who's a [00:58:00] homosexual. Like, do you go to the sleepover? It was something like the, along those lines where it's like, there's a homosexual involved and that's like what we're f*****g talking about here.

And. Should you be in the

SHEFFIELD: house with a homosexual?

SAGE: I mean, essentially, yes. I remember when I was in first grade when I heard some kids say like, you're gay. And I was like, what the f**k is that? And I went home and I said, like, what is gay? My mom told me what gay was. And she's like, but people are different and there's nothing wrong with being different.

So. It was just, it was always, that was the thing. And the girl, the people like the other people in the group were like starting to debate about this. And I was like, what is going on here? Like Jesus calls us to love people, right. And not to judge. So why would we judge? Can we just go to the f*****g party?

Like I say, we just go to the party.

SHEFFIELD: I mean, hung out with prostitutes for God's sake. Those were his friends. Like,

SAGE: and so and at that moment, the, man, it's so convoluted because the teacher, you have an afterschool club. There has to be a teacher who is called the advisor. And especially when it's a religious club, the advisor has to sit in that chair and keep their mouth f*****g shut and let the students do the club.

Like this isn't like a teacher led club because it's religious. Right. So her job was to sit there and let us f*****g have this discussion. I was already getting like really fired up and I was just kind of like getting very frustrated by what was being said. And she pipes up back there and she says, okay, well, because I know her personally.

That's the other thing. Like, so my parents are teachers, very small community. She lived down the street from me. I was friends with her daughter. Like, like we, we always, like, I knew her since I was young, And I knew she was super duper f*****g religious. And so she pipes up and she goes, well, it does say in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin.

And [01:00:00] I gotta be honest with you. She might have gone on to say any number of kind or nice thing, but I will never know because I grabbed my backpack and I f*****g stormed out of that classroom and let the door slam behind me. And that is always the moment that I look at as like. Me really recognizing the hypocrisy that Incongruity of beliefs, the fact that you could all say you're Christian, but you all have different beliefs.

You cherry pick the things that you want that apply to your personal life or your personal way you want to live your life. to vilify other people. And that was just like the beginning of a cascade, right? It was like the first domino falling, kind of. So after that, it was just, I'm thinking about this stuff so much.

I'm thinking about, why do I even, like, why do I try to dress like the other people at school? Why do I, like, I was just thinking about. Why do I even believe in this stuff? I was thinking, when I was born into the world, if as I'm developing consciousness someone told me that a plate of flying spaghetti created the universe and he watches over me this flying spaghetti and da That's what I would believe You know, and I think about all the other, of all the other religions all around the world and how those people were each born and they were each told that what, truth was, and so then they believed that was the truth.

And so then I was just like, well, what the f**k is true at all? And like, how's any of this? How can I trust anything? And so there was a good year, two years of a lot of just really reflecting on all of this major, big stuff. Like I said [01:02:00] earlier, like having all of these big existential thoughts and ideas running around in my head.

And then I found, The music of Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails and that song, Terrible Lie and all that stuff. And then I met other, when you get to, I got to high school and I was like, I'm meeting different kinds of people. And I met this girl and she dressed super f*****g goth. And I was so fascinated by it.

And her general attitude of like, not caring what other people think. And she kind of introduced me to him, the Marilyn Manson stuff. And then I was like, really obsessed with watching that stuff and the things that he had to say. So this, girl, she went on to, she was like the first my first real relationship, like the first person I really was in love with.

And. So we dated for a short time in high school. and then Marilyn Manson, I would say these were the two, these were two like key figures that I think really helped shape me into the person that I am today. I mean, going back, so long, that was a good baseline for me to be like, why am I so concerned not only with like what other people are thinking about reality, but like with what other people think of me.

Like,

SHEFFIELD: well,

SAGE: that's, it's not, I love this phrase. Like what other people think of me isn't any of my business, unless it's good.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But

SAGE: It's like, it's still a good thing. And then like doing the job that I do now and hearing from such a wide variety of people on a daily basis for the past 20 years of doing this work, it's really shown me how many people are paralyzed by.

Worrying about what other people think that they don't live [01:04:00] their truth. They don't live their life authentically. They don't live their life with the joy of their own expression.

SHEFFIELD: Or even knowing who they are.

SAGE: Yeah. Or their own even adventures. Like, man, I wish I could go do X, Y, Z. And I'm like, what the f**k is holding you back?

You can't. Oh,

SHEFFIELD: you could. Yeah.

SAGE: Yeah. But they're just crippled by this stuff.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah, so can I just step back a little bit in the story though? So you I mean for people Who are familiar with your work and who you are, like, you do identify as queer and you are attracted to

SAGE: men and

SHEFFIELD: women like, so, I mean, non

SAGE: binary people and, yeah,

SHEFFIELD: And so for, but like, did you have that sense when you heard the teacher say that.

Homosexuality is a sin. Had you had that sense about yourself by that?

SAGE: Okay. So yes, I had, but not in the sense that like I identified as that person yet at that time I think it was. Around that time that I was around 13 that I was really starting to be like I'm bisexual. That's how I identified at the time.

But it didn't really sink in like, no, I like girls too. I have crushes on girls too. I think I was in ninth grade the first time I made out with a girl and I was like, yep, I want this, so I think I wasn't really like when I got up and walked out of that classroom, it wasn't because I was personally offended from my own.

Queerness, it was that I was offended for an [01:06:00] entire, of course, I wouldn't have had this language at the time, but an entire marginalized group of people who I viewed as, No different than myself and not because of the sexuality aspect. Just because of the humanity aspect and, just like the way that I was raised.

So I wasn't, yeah. So I wasn't pi, I wasn't like pissed off for myself. I was just pissed off that in this f*****g classroom, , this teacher was trying to remind. that being gay was this was a sin in the eyes of God or whatever. And I was just like, this is not okay. Like I just viscerally knew that was not okay.

Seeing others' humanity makes it so much harder to hate them

SHEFFIELD: Yeah, like that's getting people to not see that is really the, one of the core control mechanisms for this authoritarian ideology that we're talking about, because the moment that you see that people are, who are different than you are also the same as you.

SAGE: Oh yes.

SHEFFIELD: Then it's, then you can't, it's impossible to hate them after that. That, getting men to see that women are people too, and getting, straight people to see that, non straight people are people and the transgender people are people,

it's about removing our humanity, our shared sense of humanity.

SAGE: Yes, finding the ways to separate us, whether it's up and down, whether it's right and blue. Yeah, And that's the thing is like it is up versus down, but everybody's all caught up in this left versus right and they're not. And I'm like, if we could just realize that it's up that we need to be f*****g using our forces again.

But when we talk about like what you just said, even about getting, people to essentially like hate each other. [01:08:00] And Even when I think right now about people that I just like disagree with so deeply on such a deep level, like when I think about Donald Trump, for example, I don't even think of it, I think of it, it kind of was the thing that just like makes me a little ill and it makes me just upset that to know that people can fall for such a, it's just so clearly An emperor in no clothing type of situation.

Right. But it's not, I don't feel hatred towards it. I don't feel hate towards Donald Trump, towards Charlie Kirk, like towards Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan, whatever. I hate the ideologies they espouse, but I don't hate them as people. I think they're just like very, misguided people that. Got almost the minds taken advantage of, but and so I think that it's, yeah, as you say that, like, if we could just recognize each other's humanities, that's like a really good first step.

But it's frustrating that like very much feels like their site isn't willing to see that, but on a deeper level than just talking about sides, like I have done some of the most powerful hallucinogenics that you can have access to on this planet. And. And it was made very clear to me that like, and so you can take this with whatever grain of salt you want to, but through my own lens, like this seems very obvious and I see it all the time.

I mean, I see this s**t all the time that just like people see Jesus all the time. I get it. It's about it's about. Getting that oneness, that non duality. So it was basically like, we are all the same thing. We are like all of this, not just you and me and not just people, not just animals, not just this desk or whatever. It's just like, it's all, it's, there's no separation.

It's. And we're here having this this [01:10:00] little f*****g experience of being alive in this way. And so I remember the last, I've done it twice now, two separate times. And the, and obviously the second time it's going to be a lot different than the first time. And after I came out the first time, when I came back, I was laughing hysterically because being alive is just so f*****g ridiculous. But then the second time when I came back, I cried and I wasn't crying because of what I had been through. I was weeping because what I said over and over was if only they knew. If only everybody knew what it all really was,

we would

not have all of this like hate.

It sounds so trite, trying to use the words to say it, right? It sounds very cliche and very hippie ish, but it's like, if things wouldn't be this way, if just people knew.

SHEFFIELD: Well, yeah, and well, look, you shouldn't feel. Bad about that, about feeling that way. Cause you're right about that. Cause the, everybody wants to be seen, but most people don't want to be known and, so like, and that, that's the thing is that if you can get to the, if, everyone could get to the point where they want to be known to themselves and to others, like, that's what we need is for people to have that sense of that, that we are.

All together. And

SAGE: yeah,

SHEFFIELD: That's what we need. And we come

SAGE: from the same stuff and we'll go back to that. So yeah.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. And like, and that is why I do. I mean, that is another reason why that I am trying to sort of reconfigure my career [01:12:00] because like I, I'm, by trade a political writer and a pollster and TV news producer.

But those are not the answers we need right now. And like this is like, and as part of my personal journey, like I have come to realize that, adult entertainers and sex workers. You guys are actually some of the most important people in the world right now. And I, really mean that. I'm not just, saying that to be nice to you.

Yeah. I really f*****g mean that. It's nice to

SAGE: hear, but I know what you mean. Like, I know what you mean. Most of us do live our lives in a

SHEFFIELD: very honest

SAGE: way.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah, and that's what it is, because like, It is the only profession out there that everybody knows about. And everybody uses. But it is also hated at the same time.

SAGE: Oh, yes.

And they don't want to talk about it. And yeah. Yeah.

Answering the radical feminist critique of pornography

SAGE: And it's funny too, because like a lot of like, especially Rad Feminist, like Rad Fems, Radical Feminists. And they'll be just like, Oh, you're exploiting yourself. So there's that. Where it's like, Oh, that's, having a job. That's what having a job is.

So get that right first. And then they'll be like, you are Objectifying yourself and I'm like you are the one who is dehumanizing me like you are the one who is saying that I don't have the choice to make for myself to portray myself as an object if I so desire to use my, yeah. And then also

SHEFFIELD: you're the one that made that choice.

So therefore you can't be. The object like nobody did that to you. You did that

SAGE: exactly. And the other thing is, like, the, they say like, it's teaching men to dehumanize you or whatever the f**k like that. And I'm just like, you are the 1 doing the dehumanizing here. And. This is something that's really interesting is like, there's been some studies on whether or not porn makes men think of women, [01:14:00] think less of women, like think of women in a more misogynistic ways. They interviewed a bunch of men who watch porn, like on Pornhub and stuff.

And then they interviewed a bunch of men who went to AVN. So ABN being the it's the awards show, but it's the convention leading up to the awards show every January. Formerly

SHEFFIELD: adult video news for those people. Yes. Yeah.

SAGE: Which it will always be called ABN. And even though it stands for adult video news, it's so outdated, but yes.

And the difference being that one side is just sort of casual porn watcher. Doesn't take it seriously really. And just uses it to like masturbate and get on with their f*****g lives versus people who invest their time, who become like attached to particular performers, seek out their work and and then, like patronize their websites and stuff like that, or they follow the particular brands or companies that they like the work that comes from them.

And what they found is that. So the casual watchers are, tend to see women or view women in these more misogynistic ways. They like, when they were asked these questions, sort of questions like, do you think we should ever have a woman president or their answer would be no. Then, but then when they interview these people who actually sort of invest in us as people, they were like, yes, of course.

Why couldn't a woman be president? Like all their views were more. Humanizing of us. And I can tell you that just from my, I can tell you that just from my personal experience, like when I go to an event like AVN, let's say I'm sitting at a booth and I've got pictures to sign or even if I don't, it's like people can come up and take pictures with me and they can interact with me in person, face to face.

I have been told the most amazing things. I have been told that. I helped people that, I inspire people to live their truth more. I've been told [01:16:00] that, me and my wife were, my, my wife and I were having some difficulties and just sort of, we learned to be more intimate together from watching your work.

And Like paying attention to what you say and the things you talk about and the things you are in your interviews and on your on Twitter and, places like this. And so it's like, when those people come up to me and they're expressing their admiration for me as a person, they are humanizing me.

And, I'm humanizing them. I'm not like, Oh, this is just a fan. It's like, this is a person who is telling me that my work is meaningful to them. And that is meaningful to me. So like, I think that's huge. And I think it is that it's almost, they respect women on a level that I think the casual viewer.

kind of dismisses and I think that the narrative focuses on things that are just demonstrably false. It's frustrating.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. No, it's true.

Why intimacy and attraction are essential to high-quality porn

SHEFFIELD: And like, and you've talked about this on your own podcast somewhat about how that. You feel like that, having somebody who is straight when they watch same sex porn of the opposite sex that it, helps them have a better appreciation for the opposite sex and like what they want out of intimacy and who they are.

And, and like, and you, I mean, like you had talked about that. Yeah. Yeah. With Anna Fox, like in terms of like what, like how women or how men should learn, to, perform oral sex. Like don't watch it, don't learn it from a straight, a guy, girl video. Don't watch

SAGE: hetero porn the way guys hate Christian hetero porn.

it's, ghastly.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. And yet, like, so it not only gives you as a, gives a straight person a better sense of the opposite sex. She's like. [01:18:00] I, I know a number of women, like the only porn they watch is gay porn. That's what they like.

SAGE: Lesbians, like watching gay male porn.

And

SHEFFIELD: well, I mean, the ones I'm saying are straight, but yeah. Okay. It could be that too.

SAGE: I mean, for sure. You

SHEFFIELD: could do that too. Yeah.

SAGE: but the, like my theory behind that is that it has to do with the genuine Attraction and passion. And in a lot of straight porn they're just I mean, there's, I've watched a film I've filmed it.

I've like, I don't do boy, girl porn with anybody except my partner, but there's just, there's some scenes where they're very connected and it's great, but I feel like that's more rare, which normally seeing as a very paint by numbers scene happening. We need to get a few minutes in this position, a few minutes in this position, a few minutes in that position.

And everybody can go home, and I just think that's not what women want to see. So whether it's lesbians or straight women watching it, they're, watching the gay porn because they're like, these two human beings are actually really f*****g hot for each other. And like, if that's what I want to see in porn.

And so there's actually like this little thing that I'm kind of proud of, even though it was very, long time ago at this point, but cosmopolitan magazine wrote this article and it was just for their online magazine, but it was called the straight girl appeal of lesbian porn. And the way that, you know, when you're opening an article, a great way of doing that is sort of telling a little story.

And so, the article opens talking about this girl who she lays down in her bed and she picks up her phone and she's scrolling through porn. As she's going through lesbian porn and she stops on this dark haired beauty with a big butt. And the name is Sin Sage. And I was like, I literally mentioned my work in this article.

And that she picked me because it's, cause f*****g I make really good lesbian porn, but it's because [01:20:00] It's a similar thing, that desire that like, when I approach a scene, I'm, looking in my body. Like I want this girl, and I go based through that. And so what the girl who was watching the porn said, she's like, when I watched this type of porn, I can put myself in either position.

So in the one direction, I'm getting my pussy eaten in the one direction. I'm getting my pussy tripped on in the other direction. I'm still the one getting my pussy eaten, by someone who looks like they really want to be f*****g eating my pussy. And if that's what we do when we watch porn, sometimes it's like we would put ourselves into that position to fulfill the fantasy of good feeling.

Then that makes sense. You'll start to see why even though like, I don't, well, I identify with my dick, my psychic dick, but a feminine person who maybe doesn't identify with their psychic dick would watch gay porn, but still just being like, maybe I don't put myself in the position of being a man.

But I put myself in the position of being desired in the way that these two men are actually desiring each other and having that level of passion. And I feel like that's something that's just kind of missing from a lot of people's sex lives is that, passion, that's what they're seeking when they're watching porn.

I mean, and that was something that, yeah, just again, like coming up in the porn and That I knew what I liked and what I wanted. And so even though it wasn't with a guy, but it was like my early days, I would do more bottoming and now it's like, no, I am the top, but and I would do fetish scenes where I wanted to get.

Hits with the flogger on my back. A lot of times I wanted to feel that or I wanted someone to make me eat their ass or whatever. Like I, I liked that. And so even though it was something that was definitely, this was the [01:22:00] word degrading, like people are like, Oh, you're degrading yourself. And I'm like, Sometimes I want to feel degraded.

It makes me the horny. Like sometimes I want that. And are you telling me that I shouldn't have what I want? Like I want, you know what I mean? And so that That aspect of it. It's just important to remember that like, when you do watch porn and you're looking at it and you're like, Oh no, I'm like worried about this girl.

Cause she's really being degraded right now. Just remember that girl was probably like. Oh, f**k. Yeah. Today I get to go to work and be degraded and get paid for it. I am so stoked about this. And so while there's definitely stuff happening where it's like, there's so much, we talk about this as though it's like, there's some shadowy cabal of pornographers who are like, come on, kid, don't you want to f*****g be a star?

Like that's just not how things are really. And there's so much economic reason. So it would be nice if everybody did their job just because they loved it. But that's totally unrealistic in the current structure of capitalism that we live under. And so,

SHEFFIELD: yeah.

SAGE: And so it's like, yeah, sometimes there is economic coercion to do a porn scene.

And but that is still a choice that person. Is making because they're like, I do want that paycheck because it's going to help me live. And so it

SHEFFIELD: isn't the last. Yeah, and is it more degrading than, going and picking a minimum wage job and working that for 6 months? Is that?

SAGE: Yeah, 6 months.

Is that

SHEFFIELD: bigger morally?

SAGE: Yeah, and I would argue that no, it's not. And I don't, and this is the thing too, I don't ever want to talk about people's jobs in a sense of that, like, Like working at Walmart is [01:24:00] degrading. Like, I don't think that it's working at Walmart or working at McDonald's or cleaning toilets is not degrading.

Yeah. But what is degrading is that it is so f*****g devalued that it is like you doing this for an hour is worth less than the hamburger at this f*****g store, an hour of your life. Like what is degrading is that people's lives are so devalued that an hour of their life is worth seven f*****g dollars.

Like it just, and then to people look at that s**t, all these sex trafficking, savior companies, like nine and a half out of 10 of them are just taking those profits and building the company. paying for lobbyists who are going to destroy porn in this country. They are not actually providing tangible help to people who want to get out of the business.

They hand them 300. If someone's been arrested for working on the street or something, that they'll. Rather than go to jail, maybe they'll be like, Oh, you could go here. They'll give them 300 and say like, good luck. They still don't have housing. They still don't have work. Like, so it's just, that's not

SHEFFIELD: fixing the underlying reason that, if they didn't want to do it, like if, and maybe they wanted to do it, like you don't even know why they did it.

We

SAGE: all have a price for pretty much everything. So it's like, I will say that. I don't know. I was about to use anal, but I don't think I could do it. Even if it was a million dollars, like, let's just say that it's, it is something like how much for me to take a s**t on someone's chest.

I w I don't want to do that. I don't want to f*****g do that. I have zero interest in doing that, but do I have a f*****g price? I got a price.

But I'm just making an overall point about like economics, about capitalism, about the reasons why we do anything that we do [01:26:00] about labor, the way we look at labor, When we talk about sex work slash erotic labor, it's like, for some reason, this work is so moralized by people who have very particular set of morals when no other labor is really moralized in that way.

I mean, F**k man, I, when I call my health insurance company and I talk to these people, it's like, I know that they're just working a job trying to get their f*****g bills paid, but I'm like, how can you work for this company? Cause this s**t is evil, because they also have to. Pay a mortgage themselves or have a roof over their head.

And so to judge particular jobs as somehow being, more morally.

SHEFFIELD: Unless you work for Donald Trump, that's different. Probably.

SAGE: yes. That's a job that I would say morally, like, what the f**k are you doing? Like, this is bad. Yeah. In the same ways, but, like. But I would say too that, well, everything is gray area.

Nothing is black and white. And we try to put this black and white moral lens over literally f*****g everything.

SHEFFIELD: And

SAGE: it's just, when we do that, it, it destroys people. It destroys a lot of lives. It hides them away. It it's really problematic.

SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Although sometimes you have to draw the line, like doing a scene with Brandi Love.

SAGE: Yep. Got to draw my own lines, got to do that.

Artificial intelligence and the future of porn

SHEFFIELD: Yes. All right. Well, you know what? This has been so awesome. Um, Can we just, I feel like I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about AI and what you think about AI uh, because I think obviously everybody is [01:28:00] against deep fake.

Unconsensual and thankfully people, thankfully there are now some laws that are being passed against that to make that a crime. And it needs to be a crime. It needs to be a crime. But you know, like aside from that side, I mean, I wanted to say that upfront just in case anybody had any, there's no ambiguity for us here in that So, but like, what about this whole idea that.

A lot of studios because like, I mean, this was a point of contention in the, actor's strike that was just a couple of, a few months ago was like, actors were like, wait a second, you're going to scan my whole body and then use me forever. And I don't get paid for it. Like it's not going to happen in porn.

What do you think?

SAGE: I know for a fact it's going to happen in porn and I've already gotten offers. They'll pay you X amount to scan your body. And I was like, I would f*****g never like, and the crazy thing is, so this year at ABN at the actual awards show ceremony they always do these little like, look, Well, breaks and skits in between, just this is like any other award show and one of the things like the lights went down and they show like a little thing, a little video that they've made and it is for AI porn.

And. It was one of those things, literally everyone in the audience, like we all, this is what we do for a living. And we, everyone was just like, the f**k? Do you think we're on board for this? Like, this is how we make a living. Like, and if AI is taking over. What are we going to do? Uh, you know, It's still, it's interesting.

I mean, there are ways that AI can be [01:30:00] useful for us as creators, but those ways are more about like marketing and writing descriptions or just like stuff like that. Whereas,

SHEFFIELD: or well, face filters are one.

SAGE: Yes, I know. Okay, but I'm

SHEFFIELD: sorry. I don't want to, we're not using,

SAGE: we're not using any of those here.

Not today. No, I mean, And to be honest, like, do I use the face filters? Yeah, I do not every time when I take a picture. Cause like, it's also a lot of work to like put it on every single f*****g picture, but but yeah, like especially with a live thing or whatever, if there's an option, I'm going to take it, but I do still think it's bad.

I think it's really bad for culture and society. Again, because it's, we, want to be the things that we see when we talk about media just like growing up in the nineties and the whole being a waif. The culture of you gotta be skinny as you could possibly be. It does not matter if health, none of that, like it's all about being skinny.

Watching my mom. Just constantly never end it to this f*****g day. Like still talk about her weight, obsess over it, obsess over the things she eats. Like, and I've just like, that's so f*****g toxic. And now it's, like faces. It's, like, you can't just have a human face and it's just.

That's, and I'm caught up in it too. Like I'm looking in again like eyelid surgery and like, maybe I will get a shot of Botox here after all. Even though I said I will never do this, it's just because we do, I am a part of this culture. I live in it. I'm on camera. I will start to look like the weird one of not doing that.

Not, and I don't know, it's just, it's so many things. Like I like to sit here and feel like I'm above it somehow, but I'm f*****g in it. So. and I think. Yeah, but is this all just inevitable anyways? I don't know. So the thing with the AI, [01:32:00] right. It's like, it's one of those things about progress, right?

There's two different kinds of progress. There's like, industrial progress. Right. And then there's like progress, like what we talk about where it's like, we're, progressives because we think people should, I don't know, have rights. So, And I think when it comes to this, like industrial or technological progress, that is a, wheel that will move forward and cannot be stopped.

So I think that AI was, I saw this really great. Like tweet that was like, I wanted AI to do the dishes and the laundry. And this was the promise kind of a future technology, right? Especially like in the post war era and stuff, the robot does the dishes and the laundry and cooks the meals so that you can write poetry and paint pictures and make art or play in a field or whatever, right.

But with the system of capitalism, the way that it is. You are devalued if you are not you're dehumanized if you are not working for the machine. And so what's happened, but anyways, what's happening instead is the opposite of that. The AI is now making the art and writing the scripts and making the paintings and we still have to f*****g sweep floors and clean toilets.

And so that's, when I think about the promise of It's just more money for the billionaires, us having less access to even be able to do jobs to make an income. And I just see this future world where it's like well, a lot of Black Mirror episodes for sure. But I watched this movie now I can't think of the f*****g name of it, but it has Bruce Willis.

It's called Looper.

SHEFFIELD: And the

SAGE: movie is about whatever, like all [01:34:00] kinds of s**t. But it's in this future world, right? And in this future world, you have everybody living on the street. And then a few people in high rise f*****g mansions, and that is all of society and a couple of people that can live out on farms in the middle of nowhere.

And I, and the first time I saw that scene of their streets, I was like, Oh, that's us. That's our future. That's probably like. 40 years away. Like I just, unless something changes, not so sure if we're heading that direction, but I've talked about AI in this sense of things. Like I, I don't see it as like a hopeful future.

And when it comes to AI and adult, it's just the same idea. Like I don't. Think it's good. Don't like.

SHEFFIELD: All right. Well, I think that's, that's don't you make a lot of great points there. So this has been a lot of fun and for people who want to. Up with what you're doing. what's your recommendations for them?

SAGE: Yeah, I have a million different things. So rather than sit here and list them all off, I'm going to say sin dash sage. com. I still Sinn with two N's, so it’s sinn-sage.com. And from that website, you can find all of my social medias where you should definitely follow me. And you can find all the places where I sell my wares and you can find all the information about my podcasts and I do college speaking engagements. So if you work for a school or any sort of thing where you'd like to bring me in for any reason to talk about these issues, you can find that information there as well.

So yeah, sinn-sage.com

SHEFFIELD: Okay, well, you should plug your podcast name, like, we've talked about it at length here, we should at least say the name, [01:36:00] come on.

SAGE: So my podcast is called “Sage Advice with Sinn Sage,” and I do have a sex worker on every week or someone related to the sex industry. We have a nice interview and we get real deep on some of this type of stuff we were talking about today.

And then at the end of the episode, I have two advice, two advice questions that my guest and I answer that have been emailed in. And they are related to sex, relationships. It's porn. If you have any questions about porn, any questions about sex work, we'd love to answer it. And yeah, that's my podcast

SHEFFIELD: and it is, and it's worth checking out. I recommend people do that. So all right. Well, awesome. Yeah.

So that is the program for today. I appreciate everybody joining us for the discussion, and you can always get more, if you go to theoryofchange.show, you can get the video, audio, and transcript of all the episodes. And if you're a paid subscribing member, you have unlimited access to the archives.

Thank you very much also for your support. And please do also check out flux.community, where you can get this show and a number of articles and my other podcast, Doom Scroll, which I invite you to check out as well. So that's it for this one. I will see you later.

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