George Packer is one of the nation’s most eloquent writers and most perceptive observers. In his books, from The Unwinding to Our Man, he has chronicled the disintegration of America’s social fabric and the polarization of its politics. In his latest book, Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal, Packer argues that the country is now being torn apart by four competing narratives: Real America, Smart America, Just America, and Free America.

In this week's conversation, Yascha Mounk and George Packer discuss the nature of historical progress, ponder the long-term impact of the Trump presidency, and debate whether a rebirth of civic patriotism can help unite the country.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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Podcast production by John T. Williams and Rebecca Rashid

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