Cancer Topics – Oncology Training – Past, Present, Future Part 1

Getting into oncology requires a lot of education and training. How does one deal with the success and stress of such a journey? In Part One of this ASCO Education Podcast, moderator Dr. Aakash Desai – fellow at the Mayo Clinic along with guests Dr Madison Conces – Hem/Onc Fellow at Cleveland Clinic, Dr. Lori J. Rosenstein, Hematology and Oncology fellowship program director at Gundersen Health System and Dr. Deepa Rangachari, fellowship program director explore the past, present and future of Oncology Training. They discuss their motivation of pursuing oncology (1:55), the rewards (5:51) and the stresses (8:44) of fellowship, coping with the loss of a patient (12:52) along with methods to keep up with advances in the field (19:50).

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: What I learned in fellowship is completely different than what I know now. And I passed the Boards, I did well on the Boards, I stressed about them, but the Boards do not define who you are as a cancer doctor; they are just a step along the way. And so, really, I am much happier if a fellow has that thought process and that self-reflection and knowledge of what they do and do not know; they're going to be amazing when they're done.

Dr. Aakash Desai: Hello, and welcome to the ASCO Education podcast. My name is Aakash Desai, and I'm a Hematology/Oncology fellow at Mayo Clinic in Rochester. I will moderate this episode focusing on how Oncology training has changed in the last couple of decades.

Do you think today's fellows have it easier with the electronic medical records, or is it rather harder with that? Given the much bigger pool of treatments to choose from and the constant stream of information, is it more difficult for Oncology fellows in this day and age? On a personal level, what challenges persist? How might we reimagine Oncology training in the future?

To discuss all these questions and more, I'm joined by current Oncology fellow Dr. Madison Conces from Cleveland Clinic and two former fellows; Dr. Lori Rosenstein, a Hematology/Oncology Fellowship Program Director at Gundersen Health Systems in La Crosse, Wisconsin, and Dr. Deepa Rangachari, a Medical Oncologist, Assistant Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School, and Director of Hematology/Oncology Graduate Medical Education at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston.

As we are all colleagues, I'm going to refer to everyone by their first names, if that is okay. And so, I'm going to pose my first question to Madison. Question is, what motivated you to get into Medicine and specialize in Oncology? And then, I will have Lori and Deepa answer the same.

Dr. Madison Conces: Thank you, Aakash, for having me join this conversation today.

So, I'll kind of answer the Medicine and Hematology/Oncology portion at the same time. I was in college when I actually was shadowing Dr. Pat Loehrer at IU over the summer, and I worked in the lab while also doing clinic with him one day a week. And I think being able to see the science and working to improve patient care while also witnessing the patient interactions, and the relationships, and the trust between the physician and the patient, is something I really admired, and that really drew me. So, I think that's kind of when it first sparked.

And then, just during residency in medical school, my recurrent interactions with Oncology patients is what kind of definitively made me go that route.

Dr. Aakash Desai: Lori?

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: So, I was a little bit slow to figure out what I wanted; I thought Neurology or Internal Medicine, and then I had no plans after that, and I really debated a long time. You know, ultimately, now that I'm a Hematologist-- and this totally makes sense with my personality and everything else, what I love about Hematology is the mystery and the detective work that happens. It also happens in Neurology. That's what I liked was figuring out where the lesion was based on your exam. But in Hematology, we figure out where the lesion is, and then often, we can fix it. And to me, that was really exciting.

So, I joke with my fellows all the time that I'm a blood detective, and the best thing ever happened yesterday - is that one of my fellows knocked on my door, and she came in, and she said, "Today, I'm a blood detective. I figured this out." And it's super cool. I think that's a really fun part about Hematology and Oncology.

Dr. Aakash Desai: How about you, Deepa? What are your thoughts on this?

Dr. Deepa Rangachari: My inspirations mimic those shared by my colleagues already today. At a very young age, a very dear family friend whose mother is a Pediatric Hematologist/ Oncologist, and I think I was immediately enthralled by her demeanor. And later in life, as a medical student, I had the opportunity to shadow her and really see her in action. And I think she really embodied all of the things that I always considered in terms of being a consummate physician.

And I think, on a daily basis, what inspired me to become an oncologist is, really, what to this very day holds me deeply, devotedly to this lifelong career which is the ability to exhaust and frankly apply all of my intellectual, emotional, and interpersonal skills to achieve the best possible outcome for a patient and their loved ones in what is often very challenging and/or devastating circumstance.

The inspiration, in many regards, from years ago is the ongoing inspiration. Even today, I'm very much informed by early experiences, seeing such folks practice in a way that I felt was truly the art and science of Medicine.

Dr. Aakash Desai: I guess the next question I would want to ask both of you is: What is the most rewarding part of the fellowship? Lori?

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: I hate to say this; I'm the oldest one of the group here, so I've been here the longest since I did my fellowship.

But I will say, the best part of being a Heme/Onc doctor is the longitudinal relationships that you develop with those patients over time and the difference that you make in people's lives in the really short amount of time that sometimes you're with them. I think fellowship-- we'll talk later about the stresses and difficulties of fellowship - but knowing that you're in that final stage, you know, everything up until fellowship is, "I'm doing this to do the next thing. I'm doing this to do the next thing."

There is really not a next thing after fellowship. That is what you're going to do. And I think that's the most exciting part - everything you're doing is for that purpose. You know, once you pass the Boards.

Dr. Madison Conces: I agree with what Lori just said, and I think as someone who's in their final-- I'm a third-year Heme/Onc fellow right now, and I would agree where you're just like, "This is it. This is what I am going to do for the rest of my life." And there's excitement with that, there is some little bit of anxiety, I guess, under it, but there's a lot of excitement with it, and I think-- like when I sit and talk with patients now, I know we keep kind of reiterating a human connection, but I feel like at least as a fellow now, I'm able to explain things or understand things in a way I didn't before.

And I feel like that makes me even more connected in their care, and also in a way kind of, I wouldn't say I understand, because I'm not in their position, but I'm able to, I feel like, meet them closer to the middle than I was before. So, I really appreciate that, I guess, growth I've had during fellowship, that's allowed me to, I think, be closer with patients and their journey.

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: Madison, this is Lori. So, I was just going to ask based on that; I see externally as my fellows are going through their training, there's usually just this moment where I can suddenly see that it's kind of clicking, and, you know, the hardness of first becoming a fellow all of a sudden, starts to get easier; and they really start to fly - they start to do fantastically. Do you remember if that was something that you experienced?

Dr. Madison Conces: So, I was on Oncology consults August of my first year of fellowship, and I am September of my third year of fellowship. And I just noticed how quick I can be. Like in July, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm a third year. How am I going to be ready for next year?" But now that I'm on Oncology consults, again, seeing every type of solid tumor malignancy, specifically for solid tumors, obviously, but I see the pace I'm going compared to before; I know the depth of knowledge I have is much greater, I kind of am more aware of my deficits of knowledge.

So, I would say, just even in the past week, I've noticed, like, "Wow, I've definitely gotten better." I don't know if I'd call that an aha moment, but I've definitely had that perception of myself in the past week.

Dr. Aakash Desai: Yeah. I think, as a third-year fellow myself, I agree. I think that's, you know, very rewarding. Essentially, recently, I was giving a talk to our first-year fellows as a primer talk on lung cancer. And, you know, I realized like some of this comes so naturally to me now, and I remember myself being a newly-minted, first-year fellow, and just thinking like, "How am I ever going to make sense of all this data and everything that's coming out?"

That's also, I think, the part of the personal growth - you grow as a fellow. I think it's also very rewarding, as the fellow that I've found.

So, with that, I think one other thing that's been, you know, obviously, more recently brought out is resident burnout, fellow burnout. Just in general, position burnout has been the theme, and we are becoming very aware of this. And I think fellowship, being the training, it obviously has its own stressors. So, what are the most stressful aspects of fellowship that you've found? Tell us about the most stressful day you've had so far and how do you cope with stress and workload. And any tools or strategies that you would recommend to current fellows and other peers that would be useful.

Dr. Madison Conces: I would say, probably, it's twofold in terms of what's most stressful about fellowship; one is the information which you had already mentioned, Aakash, and I think with that, is kind of the research aspect and balancing that. Like, how do we dive into research and look into spaces that are unknown, if you will, and then at the same time, know the data of the cancers we're already treating?

I think the outpatient stressors are different from the inpatient stressors in a way because I think during inpatient, you're constantly engaged in these difficult situations patients are in, and there's not much of a break. And so, I think sometimes, not that we don't have difficult clinic days, but I think there can be a little bit more emotional drainage, and I think, in terms of trying to deal with that stress, like you mentioned-- I'm a distance runner. And so, even when I'm on service, I actually still make time for a run, even if it's just a quick run in the evening, or get it in before work if I'm on call that night, or something, sometimes just some light weights. That's been my crutch, if you will. I've done that all my medical training; I've been running for most of my life. And I've been very deliberate and diligent about continuing that, and I think, somehow, it kept my head above water some days. I do wonder what else I could do to help because I definitely have days where I feel like my running isn't enough.

I think, as many people have felt since the COVID pandemic started, there's been a real struggle with burnout.

Dr. Aakash Desai: Lori?

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: Yeah. I think there's a lot that's stressful about Heme/Onc fellowship, and as a Program Director, you see the cycle. You know, first-year fellow comes in; they're brand new. That first six months, as I said previously, is just so, so hard, and you, as a program director, want to help. You know you want to get them through that. Because, you know, many people are coming in, it's a new hospital, it's a new system, it's new diseases, it's working in the clinic instead of the hospital-- most Internal Medicines are very, very hospital-focused. And then all of a sudden, you're in a clinic where it's almost all outpatients, and you don't know how that works, even though you should.

You know, like people think, "I could be an internist; I could be done.” And yet all of a sudden, I'm right back at the bottom of the barrel, so to speak. You know, not knowing how to do anything.

And so, that first six months for sure is really stressful because you feel like you've had autonomy; when you're a third-year resident, you're ready to go out, and then boom, you don't know what you're doing again. And so, at the same time, you are a young adult who often is having families, thinking about settling down, buying homes, you know, growing up, and that just adds to all of the stress because you have the stress at work, and then potentially, stress at home.

For me, I had my first child when I was a resident and then had my second as a third-year fellow. And so, I had these different stresses as I was going through my training. You know, some of my fellows have had parents die while they've been in fellowship or parents that they're helping to take care of.

So, not only are us older people in kind of the sandwich generation, but I think younger people in fellowship are seeing that as well. So, yeah, I think there's a lot going on that can make it challenging.

But my encouraging part of it is that it gets easier. You start to figure out where you can find the information that you need, how to make things happen, and there's just this tipping point where suddenly it becomes easier, and then I see that they're back having fun again. You know, that, "Oh, this is such a really interesting disease, and I've never seen this presentation before, and I looked in the literature, and there's only three cases."

You know, that passion and that excitement for finding new things, or, you know, "I wasn't sure if this chemo was going to work, and I gave it, and they're back today, and they are so much better." Just that excitement and passion. It's so wonderful to see as a program director.

Dr. Aakash Desai: The other thing is also; I feel like the stresses are different as you kind of evolve through your fellowships. So, I think, as Lori very rightly pointed out, like the first year is, you know, just getting used to the information, the flow, and everything.

But what I've found particularly challenging is, as you enter the second and the third year, and when you have patients that you continue to follow, just by the nature of the disease and the field that we are in, you will end up having some patients who you lose along the way. And I think that dealing with it emotionally; I think because during the first two years of your fellowship, you know, you meet them every few weeks, you kind of get attached to them, and you know what their life is like, you share part of your life with them. How have you found your way of coping with loss of the patients that you kind of have a deep connection with? I think that's part of the stressful aspect of, like, later years of your fellowship, I feel.

Any insights on that, Lori? I mean, you've obviously been doing this much longer than me and Madison. How do you deal with this kind of loss and keep going every day, even with the same enthusiasm?

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: Yeah. I think that absolutely is a really challenging part of our field, but it's also part of the blessing of our field - is that we are there, and we can help negotiate people through difficult times. And if we're doing this well, we have seen this coming. We have been able to prepare people; we've been able to make sure that we're honoring the things that are important to them at the end of life, and we're working to make sure they're not in pain and that they have their family members near them.

And so, for me, that's always that rainbow at the end - is that I was able to assist them in this process. We all know we can't stop death. We may, you know, fool ourselves into thinking this carbo/etoposide is going to change the world for this patient. But I think being realistic about what we can and cannot do. For me, having a great conversation with a patient and their family and knowing that I've helped them, even if the end result is not that they have another 20 years to live, is super meaningful. And I think most oncologists that can do this for a long time find the value and the meaning in that part of their job.

I think if you're constantly trying to stop death and trying to, like continue chemo till the very bitter end, this could be a very draining job.

Dr. Aakash Desai: You know, and more and more, we are realizing the importance of supportive care in Oncology. And I think what you just pointed out is that, you know, improving someone's quality of life, even for two months, is also very rewarding in its own way. So, thank you for saying that.

The next question I have is especially geared towards you and Deepa for fellowship program directors: How has Oncology training changed since you were a fellow? And is training for current fellows harder or easier do you think?

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: You know, any program director who trained a long time ago will give you the woes of, you know, ‘I had to walk both ways with no boots in the snow’.

I think that probably the biggest change since I was a resident is work-hour restrictions, which came sometime during my residency. So, I was a fellow when there were work-hour restrictions. But to be very honest, in fellowship, you almost never are reaching that 80-hour work week like you would've been when you were on an ICU rotation in Internal Medicine. Most of my fellows, you know, they log their hours every week, and we're somewhere around 40 to 45 hours a week, depending, you know, there's going to be times where it's busier.

So, I think the work hours are less of an issue, but that doesn't mean it's easier. And I think now, the most difficult challenge is, all the new treatments, all of the options-- it used to be-- we had two choices; you could do this, or you could do this. And now, there's all these nuances, and nuances are very challenging when you're first learning. You know, you can see this study, and it was this compared to this, and option A was better. But then you would talk to your attending, and they say, "Well, option A was better unless you were from some esoteric country," and then you know you did worse. So, you start to really piece apart, and you know, you gain your basic understanding, but then start to try to apply that to your patients. And that is, I think, a very big challenge.

Dr. Aakash Desai: How about you, Deepa? What are your thoughts on this?

Dr. Deepa Rangachari: I think it's become harder in that it has become incredibly more nuanced than incredibly more sophisticated. Three things, in particular, come to mind; one's are the burgeoning evidence basis for what we do and the prospects for advancing our knowledge and understanding and thereby have better interventions that's certainly been a seemingly explosive growth in our knowledge and understanding, especially considering the humble origins of our field. They work daily with colleagues and friends who remember those days when Heme/Onc was sort of an esoteric field of people whose methods were considered bizarre at best, and that's absolutely not where we are anymore. It's an incredibly exciting time, so a lot of information to keep up with.

Secondly, one of the things that maybe we didn't really appreciate at the time was true before but is increasingly true now is the importance of recognizing your role as the leader of a very sophisticated interdisciplinary team. Thankfully, I think this is true for all patients with any illness, but thankfully, in our disease area, care by an expert village is really the new norm, not the exception. And sort of learning how to function in those interdisciplinary teams in an incredibly collaborative and productive way across the spectrum of a patient's care and needs is incredibly nuanced, more so than ever before. And something that fellows, at the earliest instance of their training, really need to learn to be agile with. So, I think that's something that is also both a sign of progress, but also an added layer of nuance and sophistication.

And I think the final thing is that there are so many diverse ways in which someone can have it truly impactful and fulfilling career within Heme/Onc, and I think this makes fellowship also that much more exciting and complicated, nuanced, really trying to understand within your career span, what is the pathway or the different pathways, honestly, that you may choose to train and prepare for and conduct yourself is really dizzying.

And I think we really are expecting a lot in terms of our fellows these days to sort of be willing to understand those options and understand which options are most meaningful to them and then prepare in a very deliberate and rigorous way for those specific career interests. So, kudos to all of you. You guys are doing an incredible job; you are the future of our field. And those of us who run programs, direct such programs, we really have a continued challenge and inspiration to meet your needs.

Dr. Aakash Desai: The field is moving so fast that I can say, like when I joined fellowship in first year compared to now, I think there is a lot more treatment options. And I think as fellows also, it's so difficult to keep up with this, you know, constant stream of information. So, Madison, how do you think things have changed since you joined fellowship, and how do you envision yourself, you know, resources to use to kind of keep yourself updated?

Dr. Madison Conces: I would agree with both of you. It's definitely changed. It's also interesting because it's not always the addition of treatments; it's sometimes showing that adding this extra drug does nothing. And so, all of a sudden, you've now changed the paradigm again for how you treat that patient.

And I think for me, what I've found during fellowship is-- and maybe Lori would enjoy this part, but the thinking of it, right? So, even Hematology, I definitely think of as the puzzle, but in general, all these patients, there's something about them, whether their tumor's genetics, or the family history, or any of their germline mutations they have. So, there's always this kind of; every patient is very specific.

And so, I think what has helped me, at least during fellowship, is in clinic, to go through that, in that mindset with the staff I'm working with. And I think sometimes, at least, I've been fortunate to have staff who do a great job of making sure I'm thinking of everything, which is like, "Oh, if this doesn't work, what are you going to do next?", which makes me think about, "Well, what do we know about the patient? What do we know about their tumor? What are the other options?"

I'm someone who learns by doing, which I think is many of us at this point, and so, I think the constant feedback from staff of kind of pushing us to think on our own is going to be helpful in the long term, rather than expecting us to come in remembering, you know, every part of the NCCN guidelines, because those are going to change as well.

So, we've really got to be able to think through these patients' cases like puzzles, and also, you know, a lot of these patients don't read these textbooks a lot of times.

Lori was talking about seeing the excitement of her fellows. Again, you know, yesterday I saw a patient who has paraneoplastic nephrotic syndrome. It's like these things; we have to be able to keep pace with essentially our patients in their pathophysiology. And the more we learn, the more kind of breath that's going to be. It's going to be wider and wider in terms of what we have to know, and I'm not sure knowing it all is going to be the way to go. And for me, I try to know the basics, and then beyond that, really look at the patient. And instead of thinking about every treatment for that whatever cancer of the patient, look at, "What do we already know about it, and what can I go from there?"

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: That's so interesting, Madison. And Deepa and I had talked about this; you know, as program directors, my goal for fellows is that they learn how to think about cancer, and how to have a really regimented way of going through a new patient, and thinking through, "Do I have the diagnosis? Do I have the stage? Based on those things, what do I know about the patient and their disease to make my treatment plan?" And that's the same for every cancer. Essentially, you're going through this regimented process.

If I have a fellow that I know can think through a cancer, to me, it doesn't matter if they know that Merkel cell is associated with the Merkel polyomavirus virus. They may never see a Merkel cell, or they may see it once. So, that regurgitation of information that you are so used to doing for Boards and for tests, to a program director, is really so much less important than, "Can you think through the process? Can you find the own holes in your knowledge base? And then, can you find where to fill those holes so that you can take great care of patients?"

If I could tell any first-year fellow coming in, don't panic about your knowledge base because what I learned in fellowship is completely different than what I know now. And I did well on the Boards, I stressed about them, but the Boards do not define who you are as a cancer doctor. They are just a step along the way. And so, really, I am much happier if a fellow has that thought process, and that self-reflection, and knowledge of what they do and do not know; they're going to be amazing when they're done.

Dr. Aakash Desai: This kind of reflects how the program directors in our field actually, you know, are thinking beyond just like, "Oh, you need to score good on the Boards," because they realize the importance of thought process, and how to come up with treatment plans.

So, thank you, Lori. I think this is phenomenal, and I'm sure all the fellows listening to this podcast will be delighted to hear what you just said.

Dr. Lori Rosenstein: Now, you still have to pass the Boards; that's still a key component. But I think if you polled program directors about what we think about Board passing, most of us would say it's probably sixth or seventh on the list of importance.

Dr. Madison Conces: Yeah. I would actually add onto that. We've been talking about thinking through processes, and through these cases, and using, you know, the thinking process more than just memorization. And I think also in fellowship, we are trained to also have these conversations with patients, right? Because it's not always what would be the right answer when we think about it in a treatment sense, but if that doesn't match what the patient wants, then it's not the right treatment. And how do we adjust that based on what's in the patient's best interest or what the family wants, depending on what the situation is, obviously? I think fellowship is about this critical thinking, but also in the context of the fact that we're taking care of this human being in front of us.

Dr. Aakash Desai: Well, this concludes part one of our discussion on the past, present, and future of Oncology training. My guests have been Dr. Madison Conces, Hematology/Oncology fellow at Cleveland Clinic, Dr. Lori Rosenstein, Hematology and Oncology Fellowship Program Director at Gundersen Health System, and Dr. Deepa Rangachari, Fellowship Program Director at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center.

In the second part of this episode, we will explore the different ways to stay current with new treatments and guidelines, as well as our guests' insights into how Oncology training should look like in the future.

Thank you to all of our listeners for tuning into this ASCO Education podcast. If you have an idea for a topic or a guest you'd like to see on the show, please email us at: education@asco.org.

 

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Resources: ASCO Education Podcast: Cancer Topics - Burnout in Oncology: Trainee Perspective ASCO Education Podcast: Cancer Topics – Career Paths in Oncology (Part 1) ASCO Education Podcast: Cancer Topics – Career Paths in Oncology (Part 2)

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